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Old 12-20-2012, 08:09 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by AZBob View Post
Right, but if you've already engineered the ABS (very popular option, save the luddites), it makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER to engineer a completely separate TC system to sell the three bikes that will opt not to have ABS but want TC.
You're looking at it from the wrong perspective.

If you engineer a delta-style based TC system.. its ONLY software.
so other then some calibration tables, you can put your TC system on your ENTIRE LINE of bikes.. not just the literbikes, but on the 500cc beginner bikes... on the middleweights.. on ALL of them.

going off the same logic as your base thought.. If I was Honda-Yamaha-Kawa-Zuki... I would run one semi-powerful ECU for the entire product line, and flash different software in it for each model.
that saves tons of money. they all can run the same software, and just have different tables.

this is exactly what GM does... and to a lesser extent, most other car manufacturers.

to an extent Honda does this best out of all of them... but the damn ECU still changes too often for my opinion.



if they kept the hardware static... not only would they be able to add TC... but they could reuse the code across the product lines... and we could benifit because instead of some niche guy hacking a model.. once we get one cracked, we could write cable/software to DIRECTLY tune your bike.... no bullshit piggyback box. And it would work across models.


ABS can be stand alone, or use a highspeed CAN bus to piggy into the ECU.. like most cars do it, and like the bikes all do right now.... you DONT need the ABS wheel sensors for TC.



I just had the thought that you might not know how delta TC works... delta is change... or more accurately the rate of change. If you're going x mph, and the bike suddenly sees the engine speed change very fast (high delta).. we can assume your rear wheel broke loose... and it can cut off power... thats a very simplified explanation of it. you use the rate of change and the known variables to calculate if you want to cut spark/fuel or not.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:07 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by numbafree View Post
TC piggybacks on ABS. can't have TC without ABS.
What about the 2012 zx14, it has tc but no abs?
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:16 AM   #13
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Thanks Mr. Dude. I learned a little something there.

Just as an aside...I found myself choosing bikes in the survey based more on price and tech, rather than on the looks or hp

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Old 12-20-2012, 05:02 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by MrDude_1 View Post
You're looking at it from the wrong perspective.
I don't think I am, I'm looking at it from the perspective of actual sales versus engineering cost, which is exactly how the product manufacturer would look at it, IMO.

Quote:
If you engineer a delta-style based TC system.. its ONLY software.
I understand, however, it's not as accurate as the wheel sensor-based system, and actually costs more in engineering hours than the wheel-sensor based system because there's more testing and more programming (software engineers' time is very expensive; the ABS components are basically off-the-shelf at this point).

Quote:
so other then some calibration tables, you can put your TC system on your ENTIRE LINE of bikes.. not just the literbikes, but on the 500cc beginner bikes... on the middleweights.. on ALL of them.
Same thing with the ABS-based system. In fact, that's easier, because all you're looking for is wheel speed versus engine RPM, which is completely static and easily table-based.

Quote:
they all can run the same software, and just have different tables.
Makes sense. Unfortunately, the ABS module, TC module, whatever modules are usually sourced from different manufacturers to lower costs and integrated by the bike/auto manufacturer to save money. Why engineer a completely new ABS system when you can just buy something off-the-shelf (again, engineer hours are a lot more costly than component costs)?

Quote:
this is exactly what GM does... and to a lesser extent, most other car manufacturers.
Yeah, I'm not too sure about that. As I mentioned, most of the individual modules are purchased from other companies like Bosch, etc. and integrated by the manufacturer.

Quote:
if they kept the hardware static... not only would they be able to add TC... but they could reuse the code across the product lines...
While that is a great idea, I'm not too sure how feasible it is given the variability in bike size, weight, purpose, etc. that would affect the individual modules, and therefore their global applicability across a manufacturer's product line.

Quote:
...we could benifit because instead of some niche guy hacking a model.. once we get one cracked, we could write cable/software to DIRECTLY tune your bike.... no bullshit piggyback box. And it would work across models.
While that's great for the end-customer, the OEM couldn't care less about that.

Quote:
ABS can be stand alone, or use a highspeed CAN bus to piggy into the ECU..
The method by which the ABS sensors and software communicate with the ECU (if at all, which is what CANbus is for) is not really relevant.

Quote:
like the bikes all do right now....
All? The only bike I know of that sports a CANbus is the BMW K1600GT/GTL and the new GS. Perhaps there are others. Again, though, the CANbus is only for communicating with the main ECU, the ABS system doesn't need it.

Quote:
you DONT need the ABS wheel sensors for TC.
I don't disagree. Some MV Agusta or perhaps the Aprilia RSV4 have software-only TC, IIRC.

Quote:
I just had the thought that you might not know how delta TC works... delta is change... or more accurately the rate of change.
Yup, I understand how it works: the software monitors the derivative of the engine RPM. As accurate as it may be, the software-only solution can NEVER be as accurate as the wheel-speed sensor-based solution, there is still guess-work involved, whereas with the sensor, there is no guesswork. Because of this, there's a bit of a fudge-factor with a software-only solution (I guess it would be more appropriate to say there is a bigger fudge factor, as there's some buffer in the sensor-based solution as well, and the buffer gets bigger or smaller depending on the mode for multi-mode TC), which means that the sensor-based solution can actually detect wheelspin and therefore intervene faster.

So, the sensor-based solution is technologically and practically superior, costs less to engineer if you're going to also provide ABS as an option, can be bought off-the-shelf lowering costs further, and hardly any customer is going to buy a bike with TC but not ABS (meaning the OEM is not losing sales). Given these data, any reasonable manufacturer is going to go with an sensor-based TC system, IMO. Not that the software-based TC isn't good, it just doesn't make economic sense. It may make sense in very specific, niche customer bases/boutique marques.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:18 PM   #15
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:33 PM   #16
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This all began with the survey discussion, to find out what riders want. When I first saw pictures of the ZX 14R I thought it had ABS because it uses wheel sensors for the TC. But indeed, ABS is optional in the US. The $64k question is, which model ZX is selling better in the USA? Alas, I don't know. But Kawasaki voted with its marketing strategy that it makes sense to sell a bike neutered of ABS. And it doesn't bother me one bit, to each his own, if you want ABS, get it. If you don't, don't. I guess that's a good strategy after all.
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Old 12-28-2012, 03:16 PM   #17
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We decided to leave the survey open for a few more days because of the holidays, and the odds of winning a gift certificate are pretty good! See below for details.

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Originally Posted by ClarityResearch View Post
Greetings from Clarity Research, a powersports-focused marketing research company connecting owners with manufacturers to create the best products possible!

This survey provides you with the opportunity to give feedback to manufacturers early in the design process! We are looking for liter bike owners to tell us what they think. The online survey should take about 7 minutes of your time, and you will be entered in a sweepstakes to win one of three $100 Best Buy gift cards.

To complete this short survey, click the link below and enter forum1 when it asks for a password.

http://survey.clarityresearch.net/1220/login.html

The sweepstakes rules can be seen at:

www.clarityresearch.com/1220rules.html


If you have any questions about the survey, feel free to post them here. We will respond as soon as we can.

Thanks!
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:10 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by AZBob View Post
I don't think I am, I'm looking at it from the perspective of actual sales versus engineering cost, which is exactly how the product manufacturer would look at it, IMO.
I am as well.
You could sell the TC system easily as a sales point that other bikes dont have.. Meanwhile its very very inexpensive to install (no hardware) and the only RD for each bike is tuning.

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Originally Posted by AZBob View Post
I understand, however, it's not as accurate as the wheel sensor-based system, and actually costs more in engineering hours than the wheel-sensor based system because there's more testing and more programming (software engineers' time is very expensive; the ABS components are basically off-the-shelf at this point).
and its not nearly as accurate as a laser range finding system either.
there is a point where "accurate enough" is fine. considering that every race bike, car and boat with aftermarket traction control (prop control in the case of the boat) and some OEM car TC systems do not read ABS reluctor rings, I think we're ok on that. we have a very accurate output of the engine sprocket. that is directly connected to the wheel anyway.

as for engineering hours... hardware will ALWAYS cost more then software. and programmer/engineer time is NOT expensive. its fairly cheap in comparison to hardware design. I should know. Its my job. lol.

btw, while some car ABS is off the shelf.. no motorcycle ABS is and they're all made for the specific model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZBob View Post
Same thing with the ABS-based system. In fact, that's easier, because all you're looking for is wheel speed versus engine RPM, which is completely static and easily table-based.
uhh. no. thats a oversimplification.
for starters, rear wheel speed (the one you care about) is ALWAYS in proportion to engine speed, as they're mechanically connected. what you described is only helpful for the ECU to know if the chain broke.
if you're describing the front wheel, you should realize that when turning and when accelerating (not just wheelie but including that) the front wheel may be turning faster or slower.

while the whole system is easily table based.. like you said.. what im describing is only writing software and making tables.
what you're saying is writing software, making tables, and adding hardware.. hardly more cost effective. especially since the hardware is limited on what bikes it can move to, while the software could remain static and be moved across multiple bikes with only table changes.
meaning the R/D work done once.... is across more models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZBob View Post


Makes sense. Unfortunately, the ABS module, TC module, whatever modules are usually sourced from different manufacturers to lower costs and integrated by the bike/auto manufacturer to save money. Why engineer a completely new ABS system when you can just buy something off-the-shelf (again, engineer hours are a lot more costly than component costs)?
you're mistaken.
while ECUs are somewhat off the shelf... there are no off the shelf ABS systems for motorcycles.
that said... I am not even talking about ABS systems. so you may want to re-read what I have said. We're talking about TC systems with or without ABS.

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Originally Posted by AZBob View Post


Yeah, I'm not too sure about that. As I mentioned, most of the individual modules are purchased from other companies like Bosch, etc. and integrated by the manufacturer.
I am sure about that.
Thats why nice programs like HPtuners and EFI live work so well.
Thats why I can take a PCM from a chevy truck/car from the correct generation and swap it into a totally different vehicle of the same generation with only a PCM flash.. they have different part numbers, because of the software, but the hardware is the same... so you can just flash them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AZBob View Post
While that is a great idea, I'm not too sure how feasible it is given the variability in bike size, weight, purpose, etc. that would affect the individual modules, and therefore their global applicability across a manufacturer's product line.
one box the size of a pack of smokes, could work for ANY bike
think about what you said.
bike size? doesnt matter. ECU control works the same.
bike weight? doesnt matter. ECU control works the same.
bike purpose? doesnt matter. ECU control works the same.

really, unless the bike had some other computer controlled add-on, like real time adjustable variable length throttle stacks... or a exhaust servo... and the ECU didnt have outputs for it... THEN it would be a change.. and even then it could be a minor one.
[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZBob View Post


While that's great for the end-customer, the OEM couldn't care less about that.
agreed. just a plus for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZBob View Post



The method by which the ABS sensors and software communicate with the ECU (if at all, which is what CANbus is for) is not really relevant.
no. but its nice to have a standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZBob View Post



All? The only bike I know of that sports a CANbus is the BMW K1600GT/GTL and the new GS. Perhaps there are others. Again, though, the CANbus is only for communicating with the main ECU, the ABS system doesn't need it.
well.. your 08+ CBR does.
the CBR600 does.
the GSXR does.
the new ninja does.

almost all of them do, thats how they get the data from the ECU to the gauge cluster with only 1 wire.... keeps them from needing another tach wire. another speedo wire... etc... thats all CAN bus. its also how the factory flashes the ECU and how they can update it at dealers if needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZBob View Post
I don't disagree. Some MV Agusta or perhaps the Aprilia RSV4 have software-only TC, IIRC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AZBob View Post


Yup, I understand how it works: the software monitors the derivative of the engine RPM. As accurate as it may be, the software-only solution can NEVER be as accurate as the wheel-speed sensor-based solution, there is still guess-work involved, whereas with the sensor, there is no guesswork. Because of this, there's a bit of a fudge-factor with a software-only solution (I guess it would be more appropriate to say there is a bigger fudge factor, as there's some buffer in the sensor-based solution as well, and the buffer gets bigger or smaller depending on the mode for multi-mode TC), which means that the sensor-based solution can actually detect wheelspin and therefore intervene faster.

So, the sensor-based solution is technologically and practically superior, costs less to engineer if you're going to also provide ABS as an option, can be bought off-the-shelf lowering costs further, and hardly any customer is going to buy a bike with TC but not ABS (meaning the OEM is not losing sales). Given these data, any reasonable manufacturer is going to go with an sensor-based TC system, IMO. Not that the software-based TC isn't good, it just doesn't make economic sense. It may make sense in very specific, niche customer bases/boutique marques.
well.. lets just say you're wrong.... but only from a combination of overthinking it and lack of knowledge on the subject.

sensor isnt more accurate then software.. because they both have the same data input... that is, the rate of change of the engine output vs time.
faster doesnt happen with then sensor.. both systems rely on a almost identical sensor resolution and the computer is faster then the hardware anyway.. you can only cut power as fast as the engine is running.
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