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06-07 cams question...

37K views 68 replies 14 participants last post by  run4cover 
#1 ·
First, yes I've searched, and this particular question hasn't been asked that I'm aware of. I actually have 2 questions...

1.) has anyone had any experience with the Daniel Crower reground cams for these bikes? I emailed them asking about what compression the cams were designed to work with... The reply I got was almost insulting! I'll just paste it here for you all to digest...

" These are all over power gains , not just top end , these cams are the biggest a stock valve spring can handle so our best drop in set up. We have seen 191 hp with these cams with stock pistons and skinny gasket on head. The bikes are hitting over 205 mph.
I have a set ready to go here. 400$ exchange .. I need your cams first if were exchanging . Or just buy my cams outright for 759$.

Daniel Crower cam specs
HONDA CBR 1K S2 cam set .398"/.365" lift, 249°/240° duration, .007" clearance 2006-0 "

...that alone will make me not buy from a vendor! I'm not new to bikes or engines, so that email is very insulting... Eventhough the price seems decent. Anyone used these? What's the real world gains? I assume those cam specs are NOT valve events! And anybody's guess as to what lift they are taken at! I tried calling just now to get some clarification, but I never got Dan on the phone.

Ok, question 2... I've read that 06-07 have the HRC intake cam from the 04-05 era as stock? If this is accurate, wouldn't it be logical to source an HRC matching exhaust cam (or have one ground), and increase the compression to 13.5-14.5:1 and make some good HP? Obviously with the supporting mods. So is the intake on 06-07 cbr1000's an HRC basic racer, endurance, jsb, or wsbk cam of 04-05 era? Or did I miss something?

My goal is to build a 180-200whp street bike... I'm still undecided on the compression I'm going to run, so I'm researching cams to see what options I have... If I run 13.5 compression, I can get away with pump gas, I will run E85 if I decide to run 14.5:1. The only thing that has me hesitant to run 14.5 compression and E85 is the limited availability around here... I tuned my previous turbo Gixxer 1000 to run on E85 with 60lb injectors back in March.... It wasn't fun having to map out my route to make sure I wasn't stuck in a place with no E85 and low fuel.

So does anyone have any performance figures on stock 06-07 cams with raised compression? I seen one posting a shop in the UK gained 25hp with head porting and 13.5 compression pistons, and playing with the cam degree numbers... I intend to stick with 104/105 or 104/106.

Yes, I have the HRC race manual also.
 
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#36 ·
results...

Ok, so I have 3-sets of cams I measured... set from an 04, a set out of an 06, and the HRC cams (14110-MEL-R10 / 142110-MEL-R10). Just to alleviate anxiety, the HRC cams measure out to be the base racer cams... basically stock lift with longer duration.

I did my best to be as accurate as possible, using what I have toolwise (a set of digital calipers)... i took several measurements of each lobe and base... I averaged them for each cam. Here is what I got for measurements... only lift... I see no visible difference in the thickness of the 06 vs 04 cams (I didn't measure them either)...

OEM 04-05... In-0.336" / ex-0.332"
OEM 06-07... In-0.352" / ex-0.328"
HRC MEL-R10... In-0.350" / ex-0.327"

So the MEL-R10 HRC cams are indeed base racer cams ... im curious to know the HP difference between all the HRC cams that utilize 13.5:1 compression. Looking at the 2004 HRC manual, they are calling for 13.6:1 compression with these cams... so they may be able to get into the 170-180whp range?
 
#38 ·
LOL... yes, I was kinda let-down also, but at least I know what I have.

I'll most likely use it anyway, just because I'm curious.

No, I haven't cc'd the head... supposedly shaving the head ~.8mm (0.0315"), will net 13.8:1 compression and still have proper PTV clearence. I will check mine when I start putting it together.

Now if I could just get someone to share the wealth about what works on porting the heads, I would be in the game! I have to buy some inside-calipers and take some measurements to see what I'm working with...in my research, I seen every other topic get talked about in detail, except head porting...all the responses eluded to paying someone else to do it....not my stlye, so I'll find out what I need to know, or HP will DIE while I'm trying! :th_SmlyROFL:
 
#39 ·
I'm no pro on the subject...just applied what little I remembered from my vw days.
you can remove any material that's higher than the ID of the seats that can choke flow & then radius that off into the ports nice.
any seams, obvious high spots, what not can be knocked down.
use your fingers to see what your eyes can't...use the fingers Luke!

mcmaster carr sells these 1/8" shank, 3/4" OD sanding flaps that work fantastic when chucked up to a flex cable. no place inside is off limits to those things.
just wrap some masking tape around the collet nut cause you will tag the inside with the nut at some point.

measuring...meh, you could try but I think templates are easier given the assymetrical'ness (is that a word, lol) that ports are.
IN side you can use the insulators. I'd matchmark them after scribing.

as mentioned, I'm no pro so take it fwiw. surely not as good as a pro w/ a flowbench, but sure beats doing nothing.

for the ex side I made a master template to keep them equal as possible. blue the face then scribe with a super fine point & go to town.
 

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#40 ·
Sound advice!... And it's greatly appreciated! I have my own theories about head porting, but not like I've studied fluid dynamics or anything, so I'll keep my theories to myself until I try them out...lol.

Thanks for the tips AND telling where to get supplies, I've been looking at a few porting kits for aluminum... I like that template! Great idea! Nice work on that head!

I'm trying to find something that will dimple the inside of my ports similar to a golf ball... Just something I would like to try (along with velocity porting).
 
#41 ·
Since I would like to make this thread an ongoing thread with FACTUAL info, I will add any tidbits I think another person looking to build one of these engines would like to know.

That being said, I don't know where the rumor that the 06's have an HRC intake cam, but that's not true. If anything, the difference between 04-05 and 06-07 intake cams is solely lift, not duration.... Making 06-07 OEM intake cams not HRC spec. The exhaust cams appear identical (lift and duration).

Without reading Honda's press release literature, the main thing I notice different between the 04-05 and 06-07 OEM cams are; the process that the cam blanks were made are different. The un-machined portion of the 04-05 cams look like it was sand cast... you can see material imperfections (my HRC cams look like they were made in this era, as it has the same imperfections on the raw part of the cam).

The 06 OEM cams look like the entire billet was machined, as it has machining groves? or a much better forging/casting method was used for their construction. Without weighing them, the 06 OEM cams MAY be lighter than their predecessors? I don't know for sure, and honestly don't care enough to do any more than type about it...LOL...stock cams have no place in any bike that I own!...LOL... I'll start working on my head after the holidays.
 
#42 ·
You could have had any of these cams sent to web and ground to what ever spec you wanted in the time this thread has been going on .
I have a set of 04's 07's and set of 07's reground to the specs i posted earlier in this thread . I can measure each if you like to know the difference's . Our builds are'nt that diffrent , I have std JE's, Web cams, APE cam gears , HRC 06 Valve springs ( a spare set of HRC Basic race springs too ) . Get the the crank lighten /balanced currently and removing the balancer shaft then resembling . Keep In Mind to use any cams bigger than stock you will need a HRC ECU to see the full benefit .
 
#45 ·
Rotten ... Yes, my bike is 100% streetbike. I'm not a road race guy, I'm a drag racer. I understand how they increase the lift when they regrind the cams, I was eluding to them increasing duration. When you said sbk spec cams, I was thinking about HRC spec duration of 255/250 degrees duration.

I see where you posted comparable duration numbers, so I got my answer... They can get the lift, but not the duration (just as I thought). I'm not sure how much HP difference is between 8 additional degrees of duration, but I'll take both when I can get it.
 
#46 ·
I never said SBK spec cams , I have SBK valve springs .
You can increase Duration by grinding the base circle also . I choose the cams I have because I wanted to limit RPM to below 13250and not stress Valve springs and valves. but make 175-185 rwhp so these newer bike dont toast me in the straights .

For a street bike you be better off going with smaller cams and +2mm pistons , just sayin.
 
#47 ·
Rotten... I gotcha... We're in the same boat, because I refuse to buy a newer bike when I can modify the one I have. In my world that's how it goes for the most part, the ones who are willing to dig into the engine usually do it on bikes from 2007 - 2000 era.

I'm trying to build this bike on a Gixxer budget...lol... So no boring/replating for me... I'm doing custom pistons that use OEM rings (stock bore) when I go into the bottom end. Plus I'm spinning this engine to 13750 if I need to.
 
#48 ·
It's basically been answered but to be technical the difference is an increase in intake valve lift in the 06-07 from 8.9mm to 9.1mm. Also double springs for the intake valves.

Just for ideas, I have a road race bike and built the motor. Reground my stock ones with WEB Racing but also have +2mm JE for more low/ mid range torque and my cam specks are towards mid to high end for all around increase. Also did bigger valves and port/polish with honda head gasket. Made 189whp 90.5 ft/lbs torque on 93 and 199whp 95 ft/lbs torque on mr-12. 13.5:1 so I can use the 93 whenever. Unfortunately I still have the stock ecu and have a lot of hidden power/ still stock rev limit. Here's specs from card.

Intake Exhaust
Valve lash: .006" - .008" , .008" - .010"
Valve Lift: .383 , .360
Duration: 276 , 266
Duration @ .050: 253 , 244
Lobe Center: 106 , 108
 
#49 ·
Nickj321 thanks for sharing your setup and cam specs! That's a pretty potent combo! I may have to reconsider boring... 95 ft.lb. of torque is phenominal! My small turbo gixxer only had 105lb.ft. of torque, and it was a monster! A normally aspirated <1040cc bike with 95 ft.lb. is impressive! Even the 90 ft.lb on pump gas is an eye opener! Nice setup!
 
#50 ·
So the software on the HRC CD ROM is 16bit....won't work on my windows7 64 bit pc. I have to try to download a virtual computer, since I don't think a 32bit version of the software is circulating. Minor setback, but not a show-stopper, just an annoyance until I find a work-around.
 
#53 ·
You don't necessarily need the HRC ecu to run the HRC cams, but they are designed to work together... the cam dictates the compression the engine needs to have...the high compression dictates that the ignition and fuel table be adjusted...also the whole package wants more rpms; which the ecu provides.
 
#52 ·
Haven't given up!

I revived my old thread because I didn't give up on my cbr... medical issues had me down for a few years, but I managed to hold on to my bike and my parts. I forgot about this thread, but stumbled on it while doing some research. Anyways, I got alot of good info off of this site, so this will be me giving back. I started back working on my build at the beginning of this year, so I've made some decent headway. I had the spare head I bought shave 0.030", ported my heads (just finished them last week, don't have the finished pics yet), and since velocity stacks are almost impossible to find, and carry an astronomical price when you do find a set, I researched and designed my own (I'm very proud of them!). I just need to get a set of adjustable cam gears, and I will be ready to pull the engine and swap the head/cams. I will post some pics of my head that I ported and my velocity stacks....pics are not of the finished head, and those are my prototype stacks, made some adjustments for fit and they will be done this week.
 

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#54 ·
Funny, I ran across one of my old threads...also funny, because I've been still playing with these bikes since my last post.... Hmmmm...this would be a good old thread to revive now that I have some final numbers/answers....

So, I've built a stock piston/shaved head engine, I high compression/ported head/regrind cams engine, stock piston/shaved head/oem cams degreed engine, and I'm currently building a turbo charged all stock engine....I also have a +2mm engine that I'm going to build next month.

As God has blessed me with my own dyno, I've been testing and building every combination of engine in my budget and parts selection... I will post some graphs and info on each build.
 
#55 ·
oem pistons with shaved and ported head

This is a test I done with one of my cbr's....the bike at this time only had a full yosh rs5 exhaust, k&N race filters, and tuned bazzaaz. I flashed my own ecu and built my own tune...the results speak for themselves...I didn't expect a gain like that. I also tried my HRC sbk ecu that I had just for the heck of it...the bike didn't like those settings at all....FYI....I run my bikes on e85.
 

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#58 ·
turbo high compression bike...

This is the bike with shaved head and stock cams degreed that I added a turbo (subaru vf48) to...It has a massive leak at the plenum, so the engine is seeing maybe 3psi of boost... I was sorting a fueling issue while doing these pulls....I'm currently modifying the intake plenum so that it can seal properly and rebuilding the turbo...I am going to put a stock head and cams back on this bike, and boost it to 250-275whp on e85 once i add the bigger primary injectors....for now, I'm tuning it on VP MS109 race fuel...the big dip at 9k rpm is where I currently have 4 degrees of timing pulled while I get it all sorted out and start dialing in the boost pressure I intend on running (10-15psi).:stirpot:
 

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#59 ·
final stock engine turbo build
This is the turbo bike with completely stock engine, 750cc lower injectors, high flow fuel pump, ecu flashed by me, and subaru vf48 turbo @ 10psi on E85... I can easily push this setup to 300hp, because it's a very conservative tune.
259752
 
#61 ·
I want to know how you tuned the ecu for boost. Is there a pressure based fuel map for the stock map sensor? I was told by Woolich it was not possible to flash my 05 ecu for boost. If you have a way to read the stock maps I'm interested. I'm using the power commander with a pressure sensor but without knowing the ecu duty cycle its hard to know how much fuel I can spray.
 
#62 ·
I don't know of anyone who's flashing the 04-05 ecu's, my bike is an 06. But if you use a PCV, you can use a GM 3-bar map sensor and wire it to the pcv to make a boost referenced tune. I can read/modify/flash 06+ ecu's, but haven't had any luck with the 04-05....wasn't aware that woolich offered a flash solution for the 04-05's...that's awesome if they do! Just so you know, you can tune the turbo bike the traditional way and it'll still work just fine...the only advantage I see for doing a MAP based tune is; if you change boost pressure (max) often... you could theoretically map the bike from say 6 -20psi and use a boost controller to switch between different pressures for whatever reason....my setup is a set 10psi, so once it's mapped, I don't mess with it...just the periodic check to make sure everything is where it should be.
 
#63 ·
You are right, Woolich only offers the 06. I think they said they can not offer map based tuning on the 06-07.

Tuning without a pressure table would be ok for low boost for the most part. Where you'd have problems is if the throttle is closed above boost onset and you snap the throttle back open your tune assumes there will be boost at that rpm and throttle % but for a second or two there is not and it goes rich during lag. It gets worse the higher boost you run.

I think when you go higher boost you'll want map based tuning and boost by gear. 300hp+ in 1st and 2nd can be a lot to handle and feathering the throttle to keep the front wheel down like on an N/A bike just doesn't work well. I'm currently setup doing exactly as you suggested, PC5 and SFM with a bosch map sensor and boost controlled by gear. My base tune is 6psi and pressure table handles the rest to 20psi. This has worked great but I just don't like not knowing my actual injector duty cycles. If I had the stock ecu maps I could infer my total duty % using my PC5 maps.
 
#65 ·
You are right, Woolich only offers the 06. I think they said they can not offer map based tuning on the 06-07.

Tuning without a pressure table would be ok for low boost for the most part. Where you'd have problems is if the throttle is closed above boost onset and you snap the throttle back open your tune assumes there will be boost at that rpm and throttle % but for a second or two there is not and it goes rich during lag. It gets worse the higher boost you run.

I think when you go higher boost you'll want map based tuning and boost by gear. 300hp+ in 1st and 2nd can be a lot to handle and feathering the throttle to keep the front wheel down like on an N/A bike just doesn't work well. I'm currently setup doing exactly as you suggested, PC5 and SFM with a bosch map sensor and boost controlled by gear. My base tune is 6psi and pressure table handles the rest to 20psi. This has worked great but I just don't like not knowing my actual injector duty cycles. If I had the stock ecu maps I could infer my total duty % using my PC5 maps.
Ok. I follow what you're saying, I just haven't run into that problem yet...I guess I will with this next build because I'm expecting to run between 15 and 20psi this time around. I had plans to try to do the map based tune with my bazzaz, but if that doesn't work, I will either get the pcv or go with a standalone. My plan is to retard timing in 1st and 2nd to keep the power manageable, but not sure how well that's going to work. uncharted territory for me right now.
 
#66 ·
yup, the cyclelogic plenum I have has been modified, no plastic anywhere on my plenum. The plenum that leaked was from holeshot racing in the UK... not sure how he ever thought that plenum would seal to the cbr's throttle body.... I made it seal, but the plenum was too tall once done, so it's sold to someone with a cbr engine in a car...should work well for him.
 
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