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200hp Race Eng Build - Cooling Issues, ‘06

15K views 71 replies 17 participants last post by  Nickj321 
#1 ·
Guys - I'm Building a new 06 race motor since mine lost compression. Going with JE 75mm high compression pistons, carrillo rods, JSB cams and springs, milling off head and cylinders, port/head and valve job. RWHP goal 190-200. Concerned OEM radiator wont handle the extra heat.

My question to those who's built motors, have you had cooling issues when racing with a built motor using oem radiator? What have you done to lower operating temps?

I'm Planning on just gutting thermastat and put washer in to slow water flow for now. Should I do more now??!!

Now that everything is off the bike, nows' the time to start making those changes.

MY stock motor (158 rwhp) raced at temps of 180-190 (no fan) with oem hose routings here in southern California

Thanks in advance for your input.
 
#3 ·
As far as radiators, I've been running the HRC setup for years but Diel was using stockers with no issues albeit modified.

http://www.1000rr.net/forums/1000rr-mods-upgrades/49929-flaw-hrc-radiator.html

My cooling system is pretty much per the HRC manual for 04-07 and I'm running no thermostat internals whatsoever, even tumbled and polished mine and I've never had any temperature issues. Not too terribly difficult to get to the 185-190 mark but gets quite a bit more challenging in getting to 200 and beyond unless you throw the checkbook at it and polish everything or go with a bigger bore. Diel was running 2mm over and said he'd actually found the limit of the crank around 215 lol. I kinda wish I'd cryo treated everything while it was still in like new condition for longevity.
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the reply !! I need experience so thanks! Who knows if my builder will hit 200..we'll see. I figured the 04-05 HRC radiator was the flaw whcih is why i thought Diel modified the stocker... so running the 06-07 HRC radiator is ok/better vs. modifying the stocker of an 06? The stocker looks so small compared to HRC. Oh what about any beneifit to running silicone hoses like Samco's? So your not running the washer in the thermastat housing to slow water flow? Also then you have the return from the water pump up to the thermastat capped at both end then right (at water pump and thermastat)?
 
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#5 · (Edited by Moderator)
I can't really speak to anything other than the HRC radiator over what mods work from personal experience, except that I've never seen the thing get overly hot under any real circumstances unless it's just running sitting still. Quite a few other folks might still have some info. Don't know of any real benefit with the hoses other than I think they last longer and hold up better to heat. No washer in my thermostat, completely gutted and polished with no issues and all hoses plugged per the HRC manual kinda like you'd described - pics in case it helps. Honestly, unless you're bumping compression significantly or going 2mm over, I don't know that you'll have too much issue.
 
#6 ·
It depends on the condition of your cooling system and the use you're going to do with your cbr.
200hp from a cbr with standard ecu/piston bore is a number quite hard to reach.
My suggestion is finish with the engine of the bike, carry on a good maintenance on the current cooling system and from there depending of what you will see of the bike trust the word of your tunner.

There are tricks you can do to reduce working temprature before you start adding extra radiators or oil coolders.
Unfortunatly we have only build supestock class cbr1000 (all generations of cbr1000) and on the circuit those bikes needed the extra attention on cooling.
Road bikes usually don't have serious issues but it has to do with the level of tune, the atmospheric temprature and who (and how) he rides the bike.

Good luck with your build. Nice pictures daveyboy
 
#7 ·
Thanks Daveyboy and dimst.
I know 200 is a far stretch but at min will be 185-190hp. Cooling system is in good shape where temps (stock hose routing and therm) during race 180-190 depending on outside temp on the stock motor. Now that we are bumping up compression into the mid to high 13's (have to be min 13.5:1 for cams to work), with 13.5 JE std bore 75mm pistions, carrillo rods (thanks for their sponsorship agreement), milling head and cylinders, Porting head and using JSB 06-07 cams with HRC springs, Have SBK HRC ECU already so i can use all the rpm now..and gutting the Therm. Might have to put valves in also as I think one is bent from over rev.

Might use HRC valves becuase of the flat face for more compression, just not sure if they are the same diameter to use stock seals, retainers, etc. Anyone know if the SBK valves 06-07 will work? or will they need different parts to make them fit??

Thanks to Daveyboy for his pics as I might just mimick all that (I have the HRC manual as well), but will plan at the least to do the oil bypass and have a outlet welded onto my stock radiator. If I don't use it i can cap it. Gut therm as well.

Bike is a race bike only now as of last year, so no street for this bike ever again.

Wanna get an HRC Rad too (don't know if I'll really need it) ..but money is going out way faster for parts than planned, that I just don't know if I should buy it now or later.
 
#8 ·
you spend that much on engine build why risk it, by the Honda H2O oversized radiator, I think it runs around 1400.00. Like I said you gone that far keep going
 
#12 ·
it seems like it just keep snowballing.. it just never ends what I need to get next. But I wanna do it right.. not half ass. Looking into Used HRC Raditors now. Thanks bro
 
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#9 ·
I may actually end up with an HRC radiator spare that I might be looking to let go. Even if I don't, there are still quite a few out there floating around where you might ask Xhaus11 or hoppa2k6, maybe a few other guys out there with some thinking about letting one go. Seems like I've always recalled running 160-180ish, another thing to think about is I bought a Spoon radiator cap rated at 1.35 bar. Sidebar discussion with relation to compression, just a reminder that 04/05 head gasket runs about .4mm and 06/07 runs around .7mm in the event you need to raise or lower clearances and don't wanna spend coin to pay for something labeled HRC.
 
#13 ·
Im talking with someone right now on an HRC radiator for under 300. Seems like a decent price... not sure what they are going for right now.

Intersting about needing new cap rated higher. Good info i'd like to hear more as to why it needed!!! And thanks for the head gasket reminder. I'll make sure my builder is aware of those options. I got a .6mm hrc, and he's got a few others on hand.. but not a .4mm or .7mm.
 
#14 ·
Good price on the radiator, especially given that everything HRC is pricey and this far along the older stuff likely getting more hard to come by. On the radiator cap, don't think that you have to change it - I was just looking at every possible option to make power and still try to keep myself in a good spot, figured the added heat and compression that it might not be a bad idea.

World Bearings should still have ceramic bearing kits and coatings and parts finishing will go a long way too. I tumbled pretty much everything and my wrist pins were already DLC coated. Used Polymer Dynamics out of Texas for friction coatings on piston skirts, rod bearings and main bearings, ceramic for the piston domes, etc. with good results. Sent my transmission to Fast by Gast for undercut, might be something to think about as well.
 
#15 ·
Good price on the radiator, especially given that everything HRC is pricey and this far along the older stuff likely getting more hard to come by. On the radiator cap, don't think that you have to change it - I was just looking at every possible option to make power and still try to keep myself in a good spot, figured the added heat and compression that it might not be a bad idea.

World Bearings should still have ceramic bearing kits and coatings and parts finishing will go a long way too. I tumbled pretty much everything and my wrist pins were already DLC coated. Used Polymer Dynamics out of Texas for friction coatings on piston skirts, rod bearings and main bearings, ceramic for the piston domes, etc. with good results. Sent my transmission to Fast by Gast for undercut, might be something to think about as well.
Awesome wealth of info.. thanks! I will defiantly look into all that. I'm assuming coating and tumbling will help with performance and longevity?

I guess i'll see what temps i'm gonna see once it's all together and go from there. Heat def effects HP so I'll see what i'm running at once it's on track. Gonna get the HRC rad just incase and put it in when I do the install.

One other questions Daveyboy... what is the ideal/correct PTV clearance? HRC manual has spec at
Piston and valve clearance (minimum):
IN: 1.2 mm
EX: 1.4 mm
I've remember reading some specs from Diel or others on here but cant find the search on it. I want to make sure my builder is going to use the correct clearance (just for my own piece of mind too) and make sure he is milling the correct amount off the head and cylinders. Since we have a slew of head gaskets to choose from now too I want it as perfect as possible.
 
#16 ·
I don't remember exactly what my ptv measured out at, just remember putting it all together and checking squish with Velasco after having gotten HRC cases back from Millenium and having assembled the bottom end with pistons above deck. With you having the '06, you've already got .2mm less block than the 04/05 and the thinner of the two head gaskets at .4mm. At least if you run into any clearance issues you can go with the HRC or the 04/05 .7mm gasket to get clearance back. Some good notes from Diel on pth (vs. ptv, speaking to an 04/05 motor):

Couple of things, and pretty much your builder already knows this. On the 04-05 motors we mill .2mm off the cylinders, then set piston to head at .7mm. HRC book will tell you .6mm but there is no power difference between setting the piston to head to .6 or .7. Only thing is .6mm will make more heat. That's per my HRC contact.

The 04-05 motors have an extra .2mm or so on top of the cylinders that the 06-07 cylinders don't. They have a "chamfer" per say on the earlier motors and that kept the hydrocarbons from exiting properly. So all the 04-05 motors I have built I mill .2mm and then use the HRC gasket to set piston to head clearance.

Did you shave or mill the block at all? If you didn't, then use a .7mm head gasket (which is the stock 06/07 gasket). It would still be advisable to measure your piston to head after using the .7mm head gasket just to make sure.

Just from my experience, we used to just put the .7mm head gasket in with HRC cases and those exact pistons and be fine to 14,000 rpms. Those rods don't distort much at all so it's easier to run the clearances tight (Pistal pistons with Kronos rods).

If for whatever reason you measure the piston to head and it's too tight, call cometic and tell them to make you a thicker head gasket. Usually costs about the same as their regular gaskets. Piston to head spec is .6mm but we have run it a bit tighter (.55mm) and loose also (.8mm).

The 04/05 head gasket is .4mm thick. The 06-07 stock one is .7mm. You want to use the 06-07 head gasket with those hrc cases, especially if nothing has been shaved. You can check piston to head with a stock 06-07 gasket but from experience can tell you it will work just fine.

If you're using the "special" 2-ring pistons and SBK spec cams there will not be enough ptv for more compression. Also remember you don't want to run your pth tighter than .6mm.
 
#21 ·
**TEAR DOWN Report**

Got info today after my motor was torn down by my builder and the #4 cylinder is badly scorned so its off to Mellinium. Wasn't expecting that after only 14,000 miles on the stock motor, but it's been riding hard since I got it at 3,000miles. Last 4-5k mi Track days, and the last 600 miles racing!

Valves were also worn bad engough that he said, there done. Need new ones!! So I'm planning getting the SBK HRC valves. About twice the cost of OEM, but the flat face will increase compression a little, so i've gone this far.. might as well get them. Options I looking at are Kibblewhite and Ferrea Valves. Both are alittle cheaper in cost, but not by much. I'm thinking I can't go wrong with HRC parts!!
 
#30 ·
UPDATE Finally Got Motor Back and Installed

MOTOR INSTALL FINALLY!!!
Sooooo.. Finally I got my motor back from my builder last weekend and got it all installed this past week. Lot's of wire cleanup and safety wiring all those dang hose clamps..lol. All the cooling system was done per the HRC manual and as suggested here in this thread, including the removal of the fast wax idle unit. Thanks for all your input guys!!
However when I decided to fire it up...to break it in ..Damn MIL code 8 showed up !! WTF. Meaning the TPS. Don't know how it goes bad sitting in a box for 6 months. Can't see removing the wax idle unit causing it. Has anyone had this issue when removing the wax idle unit?

I checked the TP voltage in my PCV and at closed throttle its showing .0009 volts!!?? and 4.9v a WOT. It should be 0.5 volts closed. So it's reading low and since it's a sealed unit (non adjustable part of the TB's) I decided to buy a used low miles set of TB's complete off flea bay. Should be here mid next week. Or has anyone been able to adjust the TPS??

Also added a yoyodyne slipper with 04-05 HRC clutch springs and the engine builder left off 2 small metal rings on the clutch hub.. saying there not needed. Problem is now the clutch wont disengage when I pull in the clutch in gear. Bled the clutch hydrolics 6-8 times and can't get the clutch to release when in gear. Both the master and slave have pressure and NO fluid leaks around the pistons, so I know they are working. Any ideas what could be the issue?? The rod looks like it's about 1/8" to 1/4" IN farther than on my stock 05 bike. Is there anything on the clutch side that would make the rod go in farther? I can't seem to see anything looking at the schematic in the manual.

And I was all ready to put it on the trailer to get tuned to see the final results of all the waiting and work done.. then do a track day test next monday and race at first Fontana WERA event Jan 24. Guess that plan is out the window unless FedEx shows up early next week with parts.
 
#31 ·
This is NOT what you'd expect from a new high dollar motor.
Well all I got to say is after I got the dyno results back..im embassed to post anything about it...but... my engine builder is just full of shit saying he knew exactly what to do with a Honda head to create HP. 175hp at 10k-13k rpm on u4.4. VERY SAD!!!
And to top it off.. once I got it home and draining the U4.4 fuel it was mapped to (dont' have $150 for 5 gal pail of MR12 consistanlty) all of a sudden it sounded like a chain or balls clinging around in the motor.
WTF!!! Quickly shut the motor down.
Well after tearing the bike half apart, to pull the motor..i decided to take of the stator cover as that's where I remember hearing all the noise. Fukin sure enough..the flywheel and bolt were totally loose. Damaged the crank end and inside flywheel badly. And to top it off.. his response when i called him was.. just buy a new flywheel. I said "Me buy it".. NO you fukin buy it. Total fight started. So he won't buy or even replace at his cost.. so I put a stop payment on the credit card.
Needless to say..I wont run the bike until I clear this up.
I'm sure a new flywheel ..properly torqued by "ME" will be ok. Or just run a total loss charging system. Just not what I'd expect from a high dollar motor.
In hein site..Should Of just saved the money and invested in a new R1 or ZX-10.
 

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#32 ·
^^ Talk about a raw deal!

Sorry for your misfortune Bob. At least you have a cc to halt payment....hopefully they'll side with you.
And you had JSB's in there too, correct? Can only imagine the rage, especially after the flywheel incident.

Sh!t like this is what forces me to do my own stuff.
 
#34 ·
And you had JSB's in there too, correct? Can only imagine the rage, especially after the flywheel incident.

Sh!t like this is what forces me to do my own stuff.
Yup! Have them in there. Might just have to get another head done by who I should have went with in the first place.. John Ethel at Jett TUning.
 
#33 ·
175 at the wheel is right around 200 at the crank and the numbers themselves are damn near worthless, the power curve is what it's all about.

When I was reading about the clutch problems I was starting to have doubts about your builder but honestly even the best of us make mistakes here and there but refusing to cover damage that he caused is completely unacceptable.
 
#35 ·
Wow! ... I don't know you brother but my heart goes out to you. I was really enjoying the read and looking forward to the results. And I'm pissed off, lol. Really. I can only imagine your frustration. Back when I was in my mid 20"s (53 now) I was lucky and was steered to a gentleman that actually was everything I heard and built me a couple of flawless, high performance race engines. I paid top dollar but got everything I had hoped for. When he retired, the guy that basically took over his business and became my new engine guy ... well it is a bit of a long story but I had a similar situation. It ran fine, just was down about 20 HP from what it was suppose to. I opened up my wallet and went for it. Trying to step my game up and put more money into it than I really should of at the time, but I wanted to do it right (and paid accordingly). This motor had the best of everything at the time and I was so looking forward to it getting done and rockin' it on the track. Well ... this is where I can feel your pain. Without getting into all the dramatics about how I almost killed the guy, I moved on and raced that bike for two years. Again, it ran ok but it bugged me every now and then because it ran absolutely no better than the two engines prior and I paid twice as much. I got married, had a son and got out of the scene for a while. Forward 3 years ... feeling the desire to get back into the game and having some money available again, I began my "comeback". When freshening up my ride (suspension, brakes, etc.) I sent the engine out for a check-up and refresh. This is where I almost went to jail. I was young full of testosterone and lacking wisdom. I found out that my high dollar Fallicon crank, wiseco pistons, custom ground Crower cams were not as said. Porting of the heads was shoddy and only my retainers were titanium. I tried finding him but my man had disappeared. That was a shocker. I let it get to me for a while, I really wanted to hurt this man. As I got older and God has been working on me I have learned to handle things differently. In the scheme of life it shouldn't have been as big of a deal as I let it be. I don't know what happened to him. But I know we all reap what we sow. It is still a kick in the nuts though and I hope this guy does right by you. But what I really hope is that you have fun, because that is a big part of what is really all about. Best wishes to you and have a safe race season. If you ever get out my way, let me know. We do mostly NJMP, but also get to VIR, NC Bike, NYST, Pocono and Summit Point.
 
#40 ·
Ha ha.. aren't you funny. Dont' know yet..but it was sure hard to keep temps down on the dyno.
 
#41 ·
Thanks Joe for your comments. I've been around the racing game for over 20 years with many ups and downs in cars. Bikes is just a mid life crises(Im now 47) thinking it would be cheaper than getting back into road racing cars. HA.. I was wrong.. LOL. I will if I ever get back that way I'll hit you up- I've raced at NJMP and RA and Mid-O back that way in my pro car road racing days and love those tracks and the suites above pit lane at NJMP are sweet. Awesome tracks..nothing compared out here in So Cal. Maybe except for Laguna Mazda Raceway. Anyway my builder should be getting back from Australia tomorrow from his old timers race there, so the end of the week should be interesting. After seeing the guys race the ZX-10 this past weekend at Fontana with WERA.. that is gonna be the bike to have... This year anyways.
 
#53 ·
Bikes is just a mid life crises(Im now 47) thinking it would be cheaper than getting back into road racing cars. HA.. I was wrong.. LOL. I will if I ever get back that way I'll hit you up- I've raced at NJMP and RA and Mid-O back that way in my pro car road racing days and love those tracks and the suites above pit lane at NJMP are sweet. Awesome tracks..nothing compared out here in So Cal. Maybe except for Laguna Mazda Raceway.
I ran SCCA WC in the mid 90's for Porsche. I was gone by the time you were on the scene with Mazda. I too have picked back up on bikes to get my speed fix. I tried the instructor gig for PCA, SCCA, NASA and FCA but was spending almost as much on tires, brakes etc for my "free" track time as I was when racing. LOL Can't change how we run and anything less than 10/10th's doesn't feel right. So now the bike is the surrogate. I hope your recovery progresses well. Maybe us flying fossils should stick to high speed highway rips.
 
#44 ·
Sounds like you and I would have been great neighbors. I played around in the late 80's and early 90's with SCCA showroom stock class IROC's and Vettes, had a few really nice muscle cars that man I wish I had kept, had some fun drag racing a couple bikes that I ultimately got into The low 8.20s consistently on motor and a couple very inconsistent but fun as shit on the street nitrous cars. Back to the present, lol ... Yeah man the new Beemer, Kawi and Yamaha are pretty much in a league of their own right now. I cannot imagine you not having a well set-up bike (brakes, suspension, tires, etc.) ... Electronics? I am an old school, old fashioned rock head Italian and I used to say Fuc electronics. If you are good you don't need them, but like my first cellphone, computer, etc. ... electronics are a great coming of age when you are sliding around trying to knock down some pro lap times. That all being said ... and a couple of my buddies are flyin' on that fucking ridiculous top end zx-10. I think there's gonna be a few R1 and zx-10 guys thinking they need new plugs or something when they see your Honda pulling on them out of the corners and on the straights. You will be feeling a whole lot better. I am pulling for you. Might be as simple as milling another 15 on the heads and your builder doing the right thing. Hope that bottom end is an easy fix and there is no residual damage. I doubt it. I have never had a race engine that had a guarantee but I am pretty sure from what I saw, that is assembly error (negligence) and he has to make you whole here. I wish I knew more about this stuff and I hate when some guys chime in and act like they know all this and that. I can tell there is some knowledgeable guys in "this" thread. Did that bottom end damage happen because the crank nut was not torqued properly. Keep us posted, I am curious how that happened, if and when you mill the heads ... will that give you your missing HP and how the builder handles this situation. Morally I think he should fix this but is he legally liable? Good luck Rob ... I'll be listening in.
 
#46 ·
Well I Totaled Bike at Buttonwillow!! I Just got out of week long stay in trauma hospital. Cracked 2 vertibre in lower neck and one in upper back, broke R ankle and wearing a really uncomfortable neck/back brace. REally Lucky to be alive and not parilized. Well I won't be riding anytime soon, if ever again. Took bike out for 2 day testing. First day had some electrical issue but bike was on rails. 2nd day front tire somehow lost grip and had violent crash throwing me to ground, with one of those flipping crashes that destroyed the entire bike.
 
#48 ·
Glad to hear that your alive at least. Give it some time and you will be up and moving soon. I always try to stay positive and tell everyone that it could have been a lot worse. Like u said, at least your not paralyzed from waist down. Post some pics of the bike when you get around to it. Good luck bro.
 
#49 ·
Damn you've had a really shitty couple of months with that bike. Make sure you take it really slow and use the brace, as much as it sucks, for as long as the doctor tells you too.

My brother broke a cpl vertebrae when a brain dead broad pulled out in front of him about 18 months ago and he's still not even able to work a full day yet, but he also went back to work way sooner then he should've. If you haven't tried it yet he wears a copper infused compression shirt that really helps him. I hope you have a really good health insurance policy because the last thing you should have to deal with at a time like this is doctor bills.

Is there anything that's salvageable on the bike that you could sell to recoupe atleast a little cash so it's not a total loss? If you are hard up for cash and there's anything that's still good I'll gladly buy what I can to help, good luck and I hope to hell your doctors better then your engine builder turned out to be.
 
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