Myths & Mysteries of the 2017+ SP2 ECU - Honda CBR1000 Forum : 1000RR.net
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post #1 of 25 Old 05-07-2018, 01:56 PM Thread Starter
RC45
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Myths & Mysteries of the 2017+ SP2 ECU & Woolich Racing Tuned S/W

*******

Let me preface this thread with the assurance that I am not trying to detract from others contributions and valuable input to modifying, tuning or otherwise improving on the 2017+ CBR1000RR base, ABS, SP1 or SP2.

I am merely suggesting that folks be aware that the 2017+ CBR1000RR uses a different philosophy behind the electronic assists, features and tools compared to other OEM implementations of similar assists, features and tools, and that before just diving in and summarily dismissing any and all factory configurations as crap, consider the context in which they are meant to operate with regard to all the feature sets the bike has to offer. And I don't just mean the stock values, change those all you want - I mean what the real purpose of the various attribute sets is for.

The real purpose of the tables is not always obvious.

In later posts we will discuss the mechanics and nuances of editing the SP2 ECU using Woolich Software. There are a number of difference when using the Woolich software on the SP2 ECU vs the base, ABS and SP1 ECUs.

*******



ETV Tables
ETV Tables cover more than just Electronic Throttle Valve position at various Throttle Positions.
These same tables are the Total Control torque management base for management of Engine Braking and Power Modes per gear.
Now the EPA/Euro4/5 noise and power restrictions in the street SP2 do happen to be implemented in these ETV tables as well, so it can be a little misleading at first as to what features the tables really manage.

The easiest way to explain their total combined use is by way of this HRC ECU setup manual diagram:




Now as far as how these ETV tables look in the stock SP2 ECU with the US restrictions in place versus the same ETV tables in the Euro bikes the following images of the US Power Mode 1, 3 & 5 followed by the Euro Power Mode 1, 3 & 5.

Notice how the US tables do not carry full throttle to red line and how the US tables do not offer discrete power mode profiles that could serve as Aggressive, mild and wet power modes.


Stock US Power Modes - Gears 1 through 6
Mode 1



Mode 3


Mode 5


Note how the Euro SP2 Power Mode profiles more closely match the HRC profiles as illustrated in the HRC diagram above and the different modes actually offer discrete power profiles.

Euro SP2 Power Modes - Gears 1 though 6
Mode 1



Mode 3


Mode 5



Now one may be tempted to simply dismiss the progressive power delivery profiles of the ETV tables and simple edit them to look like this. Now while that may provide the supposedly desired 1:1 throttle to throttle body valve relation it should be obvious why such an ETV table profile is not what you want.

If you do this then you will be missing out on the control Honda has baked into the SP2 ECU.



Believe it or not, this is profile ETV table is being touted as an "unrestricted ETV table" suitable for the 2017+ CBR1000RR by certain quarters.



The Good RS250R NF5 The Bad TZ250 2KM The Ugly LS7 C5Z07 Gone but not forgotten RC45 Delivered US SP2 #65

SP2 Delivery Thread < - Delivery Thread

RC45's SP2 Trackday Bike Build Thread <- Build Thread

RC45's US vs UK ETV Tables Dyno <- Dyno Page

PAIR Mod HRC Style <- HRC PAIR Page

Myths & Mysteries of the SP2 ECU Thread <- ECU Thread

Last edited by RC45; 05-07-2018 at 09:47 PM.
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post #2 of 25 Old 05-07-2018, 01:57 PM Thread Starter
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More about this control philosophy:

What Honda have tried to do is provide a mechanism to control the bike in such a way that only the power needed to accomplish the task at hand is made available to the wheel at that point in time rather than an excess of power be dumped to the wheel and then use a secondary control mechanism such as Traction Control to reign in that power.

The idea is that it will take longer to reign in excessive power than to just meter the power in a more controlled fashion.

This holds true for acceleration as well as deceleration as illustrated by the following extracts from the SP2 HRC setup manual.


Traction Control
As indicated below the Traction Control behavior of the HRC SP2 ECU is managed by way of the same summarized Power Modes as set by the ETV table attributes that are used in the street SP2 TC Menu.

The HRC setup just allows for a finer application of the various Power Modes as configured.





Engine Braking
As shown you can see that even Engine Braking behavior is refined by ETV manipulation.





In the stock SP2 ECU the actual Engine Braking behavior is influenced by the 0% Throttle Position row in the ETV tables. This can be seen by the subtle change in ETV opening at 0% TPS in the ETV tables shown below - P1 EB1,2 & 3 for 4th Gear.




Quick Shifter
One of the key features of the SP2 is the factory Quick Shifter with menu adjustable timing. But as with many of the other Total Control features, Honda short changed the street bike by not allowing changes to the gearing (sprockets) to be compensated for by attribute changes in the software.



Tire & Sprocket Sizes
Much debate has also taken place around the importance of the tire radius, tire profile and gearing by way of sprocket sizes on the stock bike.
While it is true you can get away with certain tire and sprocket size changes, the real impact is not always understood and the proper way to tune this impact out is still hotly debated.

If Honda provided us with a way to notify the ECU of these tire radius, sprocket and gearing changes the way the HRC ECU does, it would be a none-issue.







One of the primary victims of unknown tire/sprocket sizes is the Quick Shifter and Autoblipper functionality, both of which can be impacted and even disabled if the ECU cannot accurately determine engine speed vs transmission speed vs wheel speed.

This negative impact on the Quick Shifter behavior needs to be compensated for by either maintaining stock tire/sprocket sizes or being willing to tune the behavior out of the Quick Shifter by way of delay adjustments.

The Honda Service Manual makes it seem like non-standard tire and sprocket sizes are not an option, but it turns out you can tune certain behaviors out and prevent the systems from being disabled.

The HRC ECU is far less forgiving and the only option is to accurately configure the tire diameters and sprocket sizes to ensure Pit Lane Speed, Autoblipper downshift and Quick Shift upshift works correctly.




Editing the HRC SP2 ECU

HRC offer a software management interface called the HRC Data Setting Tool. It is a $70 piece of software that is absolutely useless without the HRC SP2 ECU. The first time you launch the software it simply wants to connect to your ECU to extract the current setup.

This base setup is stored as the [Default data]



The tool does not actually display the ECU contents, but rather just the overlay changes that can be made to the underlying Default Data.
As such the HRC tool is a lot less user friendly than the Woolich Racing Tuned software.




The Good RS250R NF5 The Bad TZ250 2KM The Ugly LS7 C5Z07 Gone but not forgotten RC45 Delivered US SP2 #65

SP2 Delivery Thread < - Delivery Thread

RC45's SP2 Trackday Bike Build Thread <- Build Thread

RC45's US vs UK ETV Tables Dyno <- Dyno Page

PAIR Mod HRC Style <- HRC PAIR Page

Myths & Mysteries of the SP2 ECU Thread <- ECU Thread

Last edited by RC45; 05-07-2018 at 04:26 PM.
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post #3 of 25 Old 05-07-2018, 03:33 PM
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With all you have been doing does this give you more insight as to what GP engineers are doing in race prep? Must be staggering to have so much to deal with from track to track and ever changing conditions. Throw in different tire manufacturers and start over. lol

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post #4 of 25 Old 05-07-2018, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosarge22 View Post
With all you have been doing does this give you more insight as to what GP engineers are doing in race prep? Must be staggering to have so much to deal with from track to track and ever changing conditions. Throw in different tire manufacturers and start over. lol
Probably not even 1% of what goes into GP team race prep hehe. Even this tool allows configs per gear per option in some cases, and then there are 2 switchable maps that cover everything including gearing and tire data as well as all the other parameters. So an endurance team could have per rider/per weather condition modes and maps on tap.

And remember the GP engineers have gathered telemetry from the last session that may not only go to analyse current performance but might even get used to possibly change tools and features (as allowed by FIM rules for mid-season changes)

The sheer volume of data alone is probably eye watering - coupled with available features and areas of control and management - and who knows how many times engineering choices for tools and software might be overridden by product partnerships, management decisions or simple internal company politics.

Add to that the rider as a variable and you see how a consistent winner like Marquez can be so valuable when it comes to the corporate machine continuing to pump money into the endeavor.



The Good RS250R NF5 The Bad TZ250 2KM The Ugly LS7 C5Z07 Gone but not forgotten RC45 Delivered US SP2 #65

SP2 Delivery Thread < - Delivery Thread

RC45's SP2 Trackday Bike Build Thread <- Build Thread

RC45's US vs UK ETV Tables Dyno <- Dyno Page

PAIR Mod HRC Style <- HRC PAIR Page

Myths & Mysteries of the SP2 ECU Thread <- ECU Thread
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post #5 of 25 Old 05-07-2018, 05:16 PM
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Awesome post!

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post #6 of 25 Old 05-07-2018, 05:50 PM
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Agreed! I realize it may sound odd since I've been periodically giving you shit in your other topic on this from a generally argumentative philosophical perspective, but this is an outstanding piece of work which should be stickied here ASAP.

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post #7 of 25 Old 05-07-2018, 06:34 PM
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Thanks good info, helps clear up some of questions in my mind. I see the point that throttle intervention could be a smarter way to manage traction (assuming you want the bike to manage traction). If you ARE going to let the bike manage traction I guess it makes sense to try and do it as well as possible.

But on the other and I can see how giving up control of the throttle is an unsettling thought for riders. Especially because it is being used (abused?) to limit the bikes for government regulations. That part has to be hacked out of both 08-16 and 17-18 ECU, so I guess thats a wash.

In a perfect world I would want to have old school mode, nearly 1:1 throttle with no restrictions, no TC and no QS and then also have Honda's full power TC/QS mode. Try both and rock the one that is the most fun
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post #8 of 25 Old 05-07-2018, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaratogaLED View Post
Thanks good info, helps clear up some of questions in my mind. I see the point that throttle intervention could be a smarter way to manage traction (assuming you want the bike to manage traction). If you ARE going to let the bike manage traction I guess it makes sense to try and do it as well as possible.

But on the other and I can see how giving up control of the throttle is an unsettling thought for riders. Especially because it is being used (abused?) to limit the bikes for government regulations. That part has to be hacked out of both 08-16 and 17-18 ECU, so I guess thats a wash.

In a perfect world I would want to have old school mode, nearly 1:1 throttle with no restrictions, no TC and no QS and then also have Honda's full power TC/QS mode. Try both and rock the one that is the most fun
Thats called P1 T1 EB1 M1 on the street SP2
The HRC ECU allows Full Power 1,Traction Control 0 & Willie(sic) Control 0 - but the TKRP folks suggest the HRC Kitted bike in that mode is totally unusable in the hands of mortals LOL


Woolich Racing Tuned Software
As for tuning the street SP2 ECU, there is no other option than Woolich software at the moment. And even getting to this level of support and functionality has taken an enormous commitment by Justin Woolich back in Australia and Anthony with Woolich USA Support - which we appreciate to no end.

Sadly at every turn, the nuances of the SP2 ECU (probably due to its close relation to the HRC ECU as well as possible conformance to 2018+ ECU requirements imposed by EPA and Euro5) have reared their ugly head.

Options as simple as O2 Delete require a really specific sequence of actions or else you risk putting your ECU in "hard error mode" requiring going all the way back to stock to recover it.

Not to worry though, this thread will spell out exactly how to go about using Woolich to achieve all manner of ECU edits.



The Good RS250R NF5 The Bad TZ250 2KM The Ugly LS7 C5Z07 Gone but not forgotten RC45 Delivered US SP2 #65

SP2 Delivery Thread < - Delivery Thread

RC45's SP2 Trackday Bike Build Thread <- Build Thread

RC45's US vs UK ETV Tables Dyno <- Dyno Page

PAIR Mod HRC Style <- HRC PAIR Page

Myths & Mysteries of the SP2 ECU Thread <- ECU Thread

Last edited by RC45; 05-07-2018 at 08:15 PM.
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post #9 of 25 Old 05-07-2018, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC45 View Post
Thats called P1 T1 EB1 M1 on the street SP2
The HRC ECU allows Full Power 1,Traction Control 0 & Willie(sic) Control 0 - but the TKRP folks suggest the HRC Kitted bike in that mode is totally unusable in the hands of mortals LOL


Woolich Racing Tuned Software
As for tuning the street SP2 ECU, there is no other option than Woolich software at the moment. And even getting to this level of support and functionality has taken an enormous commitment by Justin Woolich back in Australia and Anthony with Woolich USA Support - which we appreciate to no end.

Sadly at every turn, the nuances of the SP2 ECU (probably due to its close relation to the HRC ECU as well as possible conformance to 2018+ ECU requirements imposed by EPA and Euro5) have reared their ugly head.

Options as simple as O2 Delete require a really specific sequence of actions or else you risk putting your ECU in "hard error mode" requiring going all the way back to stock to recover it.

Not to worry though, this thread will spell out exactly how to go about using Woolich to achieve all manner of ECU edits.
Correct. I have the Woolich software and K3 log box, wideband O2 and race tools. When we first started the flashing we were being met with failures. Not because of Woolich, but because of the Honda ECU and the steps required to successfully flash. I believe between RC45 and myself we have probably conducted somewhere between 30 and 40 flashes. That's a lot of flashing but let me explain why. If when I flashed the ecu there was an error, it was more important to me to isolate the exact component that caused the flash to fail. In other works, if I wanted to flash and tell the ecu to ignore the exup in the exhaust, the pair, evap cannister etc and then flashed the bike and it failed, the only way to truly know what caused the failure is to go back to stock, then remove parts one by one, flashing each time to see what kills the bike.

Think of it as the same process Nicky Hayden was forced to endure to make him a better rider when he first started professional road racing. He had Freddie Spencer as a mentor and coach. They would send Nicky out on the track, purposely making changes to his suspension and/or running on used tires so he could come back and give and accurate description of what he felt on the bike and relay that info to his engineer.

What we ultimately found out, as it relates to the SP2, you had to still leave the parts you intended to remove before the first flash. Example:

Stock Bike- no flash
- Pair plugged in
- Exup plugged in
- Ecvap plugged in

Once you have the Woolich software and box ready to go and the above listed items are still making the electrical connection. You flash the bike telling it to remove those features. We have found that by far, the most temperamental component of those listed above is the exup connection. (YOU MUST HAVE THESE ITEMS PLUGGED IN DURING FIRST FLASH BEFORE REMOVING THEM)

Other tuning companies using the prior process for tuning the SP2 have run into problems. Woolich has been the most successful and helpful throughout this process. There will be more on this topic as well, but I can't stress enough how finicky the SP2 is to flashes and changes.

We are getting it figured out more and more everyday. Hope this helps anyone who may have codes or issues from flashing.

X

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post #10 of 25 Old 05-08-2018, 03:35 AM
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