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SC82 Specialist
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We need to put the price of the Ducatir V4R into perspective.
The reason the V4R only costs 40,000 Euros is the maximum permitted price for FIM WSBK homologated motorcycles is 40,000 Euros.
The V4R if priced appropriately would be much higher than 40,000 Euros.The V4Rs purpose was to win WSBK for Ducati and frustratingly after all that, it might not.

And we need to put the SC77 SP2 and now SC82 SP into perspective.
The SC82 is Hondas latest homologation exercise and is squarely aimed at BSB, TT and NW200 not just WSBK.

These races are very important for Honda and the Superstock rules are much more strictly enforced in WSBK, BSB and the Roads Race series than AMA and other regional series,
New for 2020 are the requirement to run OEM front master cylinder as well as brake calipers, fork tubes (Ohlins has a speficic competition spec cartridge just for the ECS system again), wheels, rear swing arm, 100% stock engine, OEM throttle bodies and airbox as in the past.

This is why the SP gets better master and rear caliper as well - in years past those items could be changed in SuperStock so the generic Nissin was used. This is why the SP2 was assembled the way it was - the needed the cylinder head homologated and the fork tubes.

Note that the actual SC77 and SC82 that Honda rolled out for use as a base in Japanese Superbike and Suzuka 8 Hour is the SC77 and SC82 Race Base bikes.

The new FIM WSBK rules are also much more strict on the mechanical side requiring running OEM crank shaft, rods, pistons, valves, valve springs and cam shafts as well as OEM injectors, airbox, throttle bodies and ignition system. (technically speaking you can run custom rods and pistons but they must be of the same material and weigh the same or more than OEM so why bother)

So this time round the SC82 engine is essentially WSBK ready right out of the box and this is partially reflected in the price.

This also shows how far Honda lagged behind the competition because heavy reliance was placed on after market cams and other engine internals while the other manufacturers have seemingly been ready with 2020 standard WSBK contenders since 2019.

While the SC82 is already dominating in BSB, a series the Fireblade has always done well in, I suspect we may find it is still a ways behind the Kawasaki and Ducati in WSBK - the bike is probably going to flop in AMA/MotoAmerica because American Honda again seem uninterested in actually backing the series.

Honda did well with the SC77, in HRC kit form it won NZ, Australia, Brazil, Holland, Germany and EWC and a few other Superbike and Superstock series championships in 2017/18/19 and I see the SC82 doing the same thing again HRC Kit form in 2021 and 2022 and beyond.

For the price and intended design brief I think the SC82 in ST and SP form is a bargain, as a street bike not so much.
You should get a copy of the MotoAmerica rule book - many of the things you are saying are simply not accurate.
 

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You should get a copy of the MotoAmerica rule book - many of the things you are saying are simply not accurate.
Oh hey its you again.. How you been keeping? Your SC82 almost here? Bet you are real excited. Sorry I haven't been posting much lately and you really had look to find something to correct me on.

You mean this set of technical rules?

Or do you mean the FIM rules that the MotoAmerica rules frequently reference, both of which PDFs are on my desktop.

Better yet, why not point me to the things I have gotten wrong. That's only fair right? You have called me out and the polite thing to do would be to help me get my facts correct and I look forward to you helping set me straight (y) :coffee:

I believe mostly it is the interpretation of this 2.4.8.3 Camshaft section in the FIM rules as the last time I read them Honda had not yet made available the specs of the concession cam shafts, so essentially anyone hoping to race the SC82 was stuck with the stock homologated camshafts. Now BSB may be allowing the Honda UK folks to provide their own concession camshafts but as of last publishing the SC82 HRC kit setup manual 00X30-NLT-0000 and 00X32-NLT-6000 still didn't have camshafts listed.
So if you have the WSBK concession document from Honda I would love to peruse it.

2.4.8.3 Camshaft
a) Camshafts may be altered or replaced from those fitted to the
homologated motorcycle (see also Art. 2.4.8).
b) Only the original homologated or the approved concession camshafts
may be used.

I probably definitely most likely also messed up when I flippantly mention custom rods and pistons...
 

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SC82 Specialist
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388 Posts
"...more strictly enforced in WSBK, BSB and the Roads Race series than AMA and other regional series" --> NOT TRUE - I bet the guys over in MotoAmerica would love to know they are a laissez-faire regional series. Andrew Lee would have REALLY appreciate that last weekend at Barber!

"New for 2020 are the requirement to run OEM front master cylinder as well as brake calipers" --> NOT TRUE (Master can be replaced but cannot have a MSRP any higher than $400 and while the calipers must remain stock the pistons can be changed.)

"This is why the SP gets better master and rear caliper as well - in years past those items could be changed in SuperStock so the generic Nissin was used." --> NOT TRUE in any way

"The new FIM WSBK rules are also much more strict on the mechanical side requiring running OEM crank shaft, rods, pistons, valves, valve springs and cam shafts as well as OEM injectors, airbox, throttle bodies and ignition system. (technically speaking you can run custom rods and pistons but they must be of the same material and weigh the same or more than OEM so why bother)" --> SOMEWHAT MISLEADING (The FIM mandates rules for all classes they govern, and btw, our domestic series has not been called AMA in years. The pistons and camshaft are the same exact parts as OEM but they are sold as kit parts - for example a set of kit pistons are the same as OEM but every piston is weighed and those that most closely weigh the same are set aside and sold as a kit for those who blue-print their motors.)

You guys are hilarious, how about RTFM and when I say something try not to lash out like a child whose candy has just been taken. I am batting 100% and once again I may just know some things you do not.
 

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"...more strictly enforced in WSBK, BSB and the Roads Race series than AMA and other regional series" --> NOT TRUE - I bet the guys over in MotoAmerica would love to know they are a laissez-faire regional series. Andrew Lee would have REALLY appreciate that last weekend at Barber!
You mean the AMA R1 Cup? Or has it now progressed to become the AMA Gixxer Cup? AMA is really trying to fill those grid spots with the $3000+ contingency fee just for showing up. They got a handle on those 300SS Yamahas that skirt the spirit of the rules yet? (y)

"New for 2020 are the requirement to run OEM front master cylinder as well as brake calipers" --> NOT TRUE (Master can be replaced but cannot have a MSRP any higher than $400 and while the calipers must remain stock the pistons can be changed.)

"This is why the SP gets better master and rear caliper as well - in years past those items could be changed in SuperStock so the generic Nissin was used." --> NOT TRUE in any way
I wasn't actually discussing the AMA rule but sure you can have that one if your ego needs it. AMA master cylinder rule interestingly has a $400 (300 Euro in the FIM rule book) price cap yet the other rules as written in teh AMA book have Euro price tags.
In a casual conversation I had with a UK team principal in 2018 the idea of a master cylinder rule change for Superstock (not Superbike) in the coming years came up, my bad for simply using that as my point of reference for why Honda would provide an expensive Master Cylinder that would simply be tossed aside anyway, as it seems the proposed Superstock/Stock 1000 master cylinder rule change never happened.


"The new FIM WSBK rules are also much more strict on the mechanical side requiring running OEM crank shaft, rods, pistons, valves, valve springs and cam shafts as well as OEM injectors, airbox, throttle bodies and ignition system. (technically speaking you can run custom rods and pistons but they must be of the same material and weigh the same or more than OEM so why bother)" --> SOMEWHAT MISLEADING (The FIM mandates rules for all classes they govern, and btw, our domestic series has not been called AMA in years. The pistons and camshaft for example a set of kit pistons are the same as OEM but every piston is weighed and those that most closely weigh the same are set aside and sold as a kit for those who blue-print their motors.)
So I am completely correct then - even though I was specifically discussing the FIM series not the AMA local series.
The parts are 100% stock.
Thanks for confirming that. (y)

Although even the FIM rules do read as I interpreted them with pre-2019 rules allowing changes and post 2019 homologation rule not allowing changes.

2.4.8.9 Connecting rods
a) Connecting rod may be altered or replaced from those fitted to the
homologated motorcycle. The weight must be the same or greater
than the original homologated part. The weight of the connecting
rod assembly is the homologated weight (of the weight of the middle
weight rod) with a tolerance of +/-3%.
b) The material must be the same type as the homologated item (i.e.
steel, titanium, alloy) or steel.
[snip]

From 2019 for any newly homologated machines:
h) The connecting rod must the originally fitted and homologated part
with no modification allowed.

i) Connecting rod big end bolts may be changed but must be of the same
weight or heavier, same material or of higher specific weight material.
j) The weight of the connecting rod assembly is the homologated weight
(normally the weight of the middle weight rod) with a tolerance of
+/-3%.

You guys are hilarious, how about RTFM and when I say something try not to lash out like a child whose candy has just been taken. I am batting 100% and once again I may just know some things you do not.
Guys? Why lump others into your beef with me?
I look forward to you obsessing over my every post in the future looking for faults and flaws you can nitpick out. (y)
I'll try throw you a bone every now and again and make a post with a glaring falsehood that you can eagerly point out - that fair?
 

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SC82 Specialist
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388 Posts
@RC45, I have an eye for detail and noticed you don't. You must clearly be easily offended when I was simply pointing out the information you posted was wrong. I corrected that, you are welcome. In the current upside world we live in of course you would try and justify and then say you were right but you said 2020 rules dude and you mentioned AMA. What's hilarious about you is that you don't race, you can barely ride and yet you promote yourself as some sort of sage/expert. Does anyone actually use anything you sell or claim to develop on a race track that is winning against anyone? Pretty sure the answer is no.

"I develop what I ride and I ride what I develop." --> what a joke

"To get serious about your SC77, you first have to get serious about your SC77." --> stop it, seriously, maybe you have a future in stand up :)
 

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I knew you could/t resist the personal attacks - right on cue (y)

@RC45, I have an eye for detail and noticed you don't. You must clearly be easily offended when I was simply pointing out the information you posted was wrong.
Offended? No, I accepted and even invited you to go further into detail.
You clearly were clutching at straws for the piston stuff as I was correct but you needed to attack everything I posted.

I corrected that, you are welcome. In the current upside world we live in of course you would try and justify and then say you were right but you said 2020 rules dude and you mentioned AMA
AMA - I'll keep calling it AMA. AMA! You corrected a point in a discussion regarding stock parts on a bike destined for Superstock competition. Sounds like you want a prize.

What's hilarious about you is that you don't race, you can barely ride and yet you promote yourself as some sort of sage/expert.
No I don't race. Never said I did. In what I do service and sell I am pretty good at it. That really bother you? I never claimed to be a sage.

Does anyone actually use anything you sell or claim to develop on a race track that is winning against anyone? Pretty sure the answer is no.
Well considering there are only really only 2 SC77's racing - Jay Uribe and Ashton Yates. I've chatted with Jay and Allen and we have swapped notes and compared development tracks and it turns out my recommendations have worked, so there is that.

As for the Yates effort, now that finally my advice is being heeded and taken (because up until now while they called me my recommendations were not tried) the bike is now operatign at the level they need it to, so there is that.

"I develop what I ride and I ride what I develop." --> what a joke
May be a joke to you, but its true. I ride what I develop and develop what I ride. Why does this upset you so much?

"To get serious about your SC77, you first have to get serious about your SC77." --> stop it, seriously, maybe you have a future in stand up :)
This is your contribution, attacking people? Should I be concerned that you will be doxing me next?
 

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SC82 Specialist
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388 Posts
AMA - I'll keep calling it AMA. AMA!
And you would continue to be wrong, lol....some people never learn.

In what I do service and sell I am pretty good at it.
According to who? Self-proclamation doesn't count Paul.

May be a joke to you, but its true. I ride what I develop and develop what I ride.
It IS a joke...what capable riders have you worked with to verify what you claim to develop actually works?

Well considering there are only really only 2 SC77's racing - Jay Uribe and Ashton Yates. I've chatted with Jay and Allen and we have swapped notes and compared development tracks and it turns out my recommendations have worked, so there is that.

As for the Yates effort, now that finally my advice is being heeded and taken (because up until now while they called me my recommendations were not tried) the bike is now operatign at the level they need it to, so there is that.
So NOW you are claiming to be a technical partner that is key to the success of these riders? It doesn't end with you does it? I be sure to ask Jayson and Ashton about that!
 

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And you would continue to be wrong, lol....some people never learn.
AMA. Whats to laugh about - AMA. Now that I know it triggers you AMA.

According to who? Self-proclamation doesn't count Paul.
You are at a distinct advantage here - you know my name, my telephone number,have seen me on YouTube yet you hide behind a forum user name.
Why not let us know who you are and your contact information?
According to who? People who have used my services and solutions.
I am still trying to understand the source of your anger and animosity?
This isn't about the "use a Euor ECU on a US bike" thread is it?
BTW - ho wis your Euro/US hybrid SC82 build coming along?

It IS a joke...what capable riders have you worked with to verify what you claim to develop actually works?
Only every rider that has used what I developed. Of course they are all total incompetents in your mind.
Again, why the anger and vitriol?

So NOW you are claiming to be a technical partner that is key to the success of these riders? It doesn't end with you does it? I be sure to ask Jayson and Ashton about that!
You seem to make a large leap there, but yes contributions I have made when combine with the work they have put in have yielded positive results.
I might add that these folks called me to discuss and share notes, I never searched them out.
Please feel free to discuss with both teams what ever you want.
I have never claimed to have been behind any successes they have had, that is for them to either promote or not.
BTW, it may be better to speak to Aaron and Allen with regard to discussions held.

If you need their cell numbers I will be glad to text them to you (with their permission of course) but again I am at a disadvantage here - exactly who TF are you?
 

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SP has been held at Stuart FL Dealership, Honda saying 12 bikes were released too early!! Still no word when bike can be given to customer. Dumbest crap i have ever heard of. Good need located /purchased a WSBK Akropavic titanium exhaust today, and my ship date has been moved up 10-3
 

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826 Posts
Once a fierce defender of Honda corp, after recent experiences with Honda UK's lies, deceit and foboffs, I too firmly agree that there is no care nor compassion and empathy for the company's motorcycle client base.:mad:
Strange quoting myself, but I should qualify this by stating that Honda Japan has been extremely courteous, helpful and prompt with my correspondence between them.

In UK, Honda UK offers a Service Plan at a reasonable rate to cover servicing over two years. I was about to purchase it for my SC82 when I noted that any modifications will void the contract if approval is not made for said modifications:
See 3.5: https://www.honda.co.uk/motorcycles...ct_2_-_Honda_Service_Plan - 06.08.2015[1].pdf

I wrote to Honda UK seeking approval of my 'basic mods' i.e., rad guard, tail tidy, pillion delete, etc. After receiving no reply for 6 weeks I sought assistance from Honda Japan who liaised with Honda UK. By this time my mileage had exceeded the 600-mile service schedule so I went ahead with service without the plan.

Honda UK contacted me some weeks later and offered a feeble apology for delay, and effectively brushed me off. After further correspondence with Honda Japan, Honda UK offered what I consider an insulting £150 service credit - duly considering that my first service cost was £200. Honda Japan is again dealing with Honda UK to effect a 'proper' resolution.

Admittedly I can be pedantic, but I believe in standing my ground over customer service issues, otherwise the general buying public will progressively be tramped upon. There are sincere signs of this now, and days of 'the customer is always right' are long gone. My distinct feeling is that Honda Japan feels some embarrassment over their UK operation, and to me, that speaks highly of Honda Japan's corporate ideals.
 

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[snip] My distinct feeling is that Honda Japan feels some embarrassment over their UK operation, and to me, that speaks highly of Honda Japan's corporate ideals.
But this situation is probably also because of Honda Japans corporate culture - Honda UK, Honda Europe and even American Honda are simply sales outposts for Honda Japan.

What Honda Japan says is what goes, and perhaps Honda UK, Honda Europe and even American Honda attempts to change this top down model have simply failed so many times that the sales outposts no longer care as the suits are in now in it for the the handsome pensions and salaries and little else.
 

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