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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Due to certain folks not liking havign the new RR-R SP compared to the old and junk SP2, I moved the offending posts to this thread.

For context, here is the original thread.

https://www.1000rr.net/forums/modifications-upgrades-12/255999-2020-fireblade-28.html

Anyway - moving on.

My issue is not with the bike, it's the company.
Pretty much my sentiments.

*edit*

And let me add.. I fucking hate... I mean love... I mean despise... I mean loath... no, I mean love Honda.

This 2020 RR-R is growing on me... (wish they didnt only have the SP) but I already have $??k tied up in 2 SP2s, WSBK motor, chassis, suspension etc.... and if the RR-R is the Honda to get, what about the features they nerf in the SC82 and no sooner have we figured out how to resolve those issue then they release the SC90 and it starts all over again!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #2
And that's why I'm still rockin the SC57.

That and I can't afford a Ducati.
Funny you should mention the Ducati - de-restricted its a fucking monster. Makes a tuned and tweaked SP2 literally look like its standing still.

1103cc with Ducatis own racing tune will do that.

We can only hope the SC82 engine levels the playing field.

 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
So what your saying is if I lose 65 pounds I might have a shot? I’d like to see a video of both riders on a track and different scenarios. I

have cars that can pull away from anything but aren’t as impressive against the competition in the twisties. The Ducati is very impressive, is it as dominant in the turns or

does the Honda have any chance to make up ground anywhere?
It seems the midrange of the SP2 evens things out on some tracks, but the superior Torque Management and complex ABS options of the Ducati will probably reward the expert racer with a more usable package - while the more forgiving Honda will serve the amateur track-day punter a little better.

The word around the paddock is track prepped SP2s are easier to ride fast, but the Duc is faster when ridden well.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
That’s good news. I am On the right bike.
And I am developing an SP2 package that we will debut in late January that should take the SP2 to the next level but still stay this side of the HRC kit one-way street.

I bought a second SP2 just for this reason. I don't see every SP2 owner trading up to the RR-R SP, mostly because are not going to be enough and for those that do, the new SP2 owners will need a boost for their new rides :)

What's the typical gain in power?
For the SP2 its more than just power gained, its the fancy cylinder head finally being able to prove its worth and gains are enjoyed across the rev range.
Lets just say preliminary results show why this is how Superbikes built around the SP2 engine can pull these stunts off.

 

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🤔.......so this is where it's at😆

Man that blade had some top end. Shit!
Oo Oo , hope that doesn't offend anyone
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
🤔.......so this is where it's at😆

Man that blade had some top end. Shit!
Oo Oo , hope that doesn't offend anyone
Right? Uncorked SP2s are stupidly fast!

Honestly, I think the SP2 will finally come into its own next year as people realize it is the Fireblade that Honda is trying to forget about and pretend didn't even exist ; so rather than throw it away for an RR-R SP (or the RR-R SP2 that will inevitability debut), why not unlock the true potential of the factory cylinder head and enjoy the SP2 for a long time to come?

What spec are those Honda's? HRC WSB spec?
Yes, the 2018 North West, Ulster GP and TT bikes for the various teams ran the -000 version of the HRC ECU in 2018 and then the -700 version in 2019 in both SuperStock and SuperBike - its just the rest of the bike that has to then comply with class regs. But they are not quite up to the 2018/19 HRC spec - Honda didn't share any factory data after they divorced Ten Kate in 2018.

SuperStock ran totally stock engines, SuperBike ran with permissible, gear box, cam and timing upgrades. But both classes had to run stock throttle bodies, igntion and airboxes. SuperStock even have to run stock brake calipers, suspension housings, master cylinder and wheels.

Otherwise the BSB bikes run the spec Motec series ECU - without and TC or WC!!!! Those with mega brass gonads only need apply I guess LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #9
That's amazing. I was talking to my dealer yesterday about purchasing a new '19 SP.. :stirpot:
See, with the money saved on an SC77 vs SC82 purchase, there is more than enough left over to level the playing field :) :stirpot::gay:>:)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
@calcudee , this topic might fit the subject you are interested in. I have copied your question and my answers to here.

calcudee said:
Have a 2017 CBR1000RRSP. Was highly disappointed to discover that most units only produce roughly 165ish whp. Am also furious with Honda for releasing 2020/2021 Fireblade purportedly producing almost 25 more horsepower than previous (my) model. I'll believe it when I see a stock unit dynoed. Would probably produce that after a flash and good tune.

Anyway, I was considering getting one if these 225 horse stroker engines and having it installed at my dealer or a local shop. Have also taken note about the weak 3rd gear issue and am also curious about what else would need to be beefed up to make the frame and everything else last as long as possible. I rarely go over 9000 rpms just want the raw power at my disposal. Lastly was curious about how this massive engine swap would meld with all the electronics on the bike, e.g., torque control, wheelie control. I know I can disable all that but was just curious.
I can answer some of these questions definitively for you.

1. If you never go over 9,000rpm then you may as well do nothing as the Euro and US packages behave exactly the same way below 9,000rpm. Remove the 30% rubber flap in the intake tubes and be done - the US SP and the Euro SP are the same bike physically and electronically at 9,000rpm

2. 165rwhp is what a European SC77 is producing - stock US SC77 will be closer to 155rwhp.

3.The 189bhp and 214bhp of the SC77 (2017-19) and SC82 (2020-)bikes respectively is accurate as crank shaft power - for the European market. The US SC77 and SC82 are and will both be nerfed down 20bhp for the SC77 and 30bhp for the SC82). So you are looking at about 165bhp for the SC77 and an already publish 186bhp for the SC82.

4. 3rd gear is only weak in the context of modified power levels and race pace abuse. No need for new 3rd gear on a babied stock bike. It is a wise replacement choice for either modified bikes or even stock power bikes subject to repeated race track high RPM abuse.

5. For the SC77 the stock ECU Torque Management algorithm is designed to work with power levels below 200rwhp and it is simply not suited for power levels above 200rwhp. For power levels above 200rwhp the stock ECU is always behind the curve in Torque Management feedback. The SC77 HRC ECU was specifically designed for power levels above 200rwhp.

6. The SC77 frame is well able to handle power at these levels - the reason for the frame gusseting/strengthening on the WSBK frames was due the overall stress of the WSBK level riders and slick tires placed on the chassis - and ironically the frame weld or carbon fiber bracing is to actually allow for the ongoing induced flex to not fatigue crack the frame rather than simply add solid strength to it. SO its more of a bracing that permits the flexing but staves off the cracking.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The new forum setup is pretty screwed. I am not getting notifications about DMs even though they are setup.

Hit me up on Instagram if you want @rcfourfive - but I will answer the DMs now that I see them LOL -- thanks Forum Update Team... Not!

From what I've gathered so far, RC45 says I'll run into issues with the stock ECU not being able to handle that much horsepower, but having sacrifice some things with the HRC ECU for this particular bike.
As for the modded bike - understand that for the last 3 years anyone with a flashed ECU had fucked up Torque Management and nobody noticed. Well, I noticed but nobody believed me until finally I managed to convince folks by way of expensive test regimes that the flashed ECUs had broken Torque Management and that until Woolich fixed the software they were imagining having an Torque Management.

So while the 225rwhp will overwhelm the Torque Management, you could still enjoy the bike, the Traction Control and Wheelie Control (Torque Management) will just not work as advertised on the edge of traction - it will just be a borderline unridable demon, which is pretty much what any 420lb 240bhp non-electronics bike has always been.

Even the almost 300bhp mighty Kawasaki H2 is only what it is BECAUSE of the electronic torque management package.

You just need to decide what you want from your bike and then build it :)
 

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Found the thread RC45. Thanks a bunch man. Will be chiming in later on tonight as I work midnights and gotta get some sleep. But before I close my eyes I wanna put this question out there.

ECU Flash vs Power Commander V. I think I already know the answer though. As I stated earlier in the other thread, I have an Akrapovic full exhaust in the box in my garage right now and a Power Commander V on my steps. Was about to get them both put on my bike. Should I send the power commander back and hook up with Woolich for ECU flash and then get the full exhaust installed? Let me know your thoughts. I haven't even opened the box that the power commander was shipped in. I shouldn't have a problem returning it.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Found the thread RC45. Thanks a bunch man. Will be chiming in later on tonight as I work midnights and gotta get some sleep. But before I close my eyes I wanna put this question out there.

ECU Flash vs Power Commander V. I think I already know the answer though. As I stated earlier in the other thread, I have an Akrapovic full exhaust in the box in my garage right now and a Power Commander V on my steps. Was about to get them both put on my bike. Should I send the power commander back and hook up with Woolich for ECU flash and then get the full exhaust installed? Let me know your thoughts. I haven't even opened the box that the power commander was shipped in. I shouldn't have a problem returning it.
Simple answer:
PCV is of no use on a stock US bike.

Complete answer:
Once again the Euros get the best deal. The PCV is perfectly fine to use on the Euro bike. The PCV is a "man in the middle" and as long as the bike can fully utilize its throttle range a piggy back solution is fine.

However, the US bikes are not able to use all the throttle range, which is why the primary power unleashed by the Woolich flash is not even by way of air/fuel table optimization.
It is the fact the ETV table restrictions are removed.
So, strictly speaking the most in-obtrusive way to get full power out of a US bike is to flash in the Euro ETV tables, Euro Fuel & Ignition Tables and then walk away.

You could after the fact add the PCV to do piggy back man in the middle tuning if you wanted to extract a little more power to match a new full exhaust.
 

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@calcudee , this topic might fit the subject you are interested in. I have copied your question and my answers to here.


I can answer some of these questions definitively for you.

1. If you never go over 9,000rpm then you may as well do nothing as the Euro and US packages behave exactly the same way below 9,000rpm. Remove the 30% rubber flap in the intake tubes and be done - the US SP and the Euro SP are the same bike physically and electronically at 9,000rpm
I ride predominately on street, no tracks close by where I live. On the last few rides whilst logging data, there are only a few times in which I hit 9,000rpm and slightly above, so this statement makes so much sense to me. Anything above I am getting into her and doing nothing that is remotely legal, besides, I'm a little over 40 these days so I don't have the nerve to hold the throttle open to ridiculous speeds. Only a few times have I hit the rev limiter whilst trying to obtain a broad range of logged data for tuning purposes. Doesn't stop me though fiddling with the bike and making a few improvements along the way though. For me, this model has been quite fun to play around with, first time I have played around with the Woolich side of things, so I'm getting enjoyment just on that alone.
 

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Hey fellas I'm back! I like the course of action prescribed by RC45. I looked at the Woolich site and saw what I think I need. USB k v3 package for $415. I see that allows you access to ETV, ignition and fuel maps. I think the TPS fuel map is the one I'll be concerned with. Correct me if I'm wrong.

One thing also concerned me that I saw. It dealt with ECU recovery. What exactly is a failure writing to ECU?

Do I still need to remove ECU from bike to connect USB cord?
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Hey fellas I'm back! I like the course of action prescribed by RC45. I looked at the Woolich site and saw what I think I need. USB k v3 package for $415. I see that allows you access to ETV, ignition and fuel maps. I think the TPS fuel map is the one I'll be concerned with. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Do I still need to remove ECU from bike to connect USB cord?
Actually, for a stock US bike the only real area of focus should be the ETV tables. These Electronic Throttle Valve tables are the primary power restriction. Fuel and ignition table updating really require AFR logging, so unless you are on a dyno with a Lambda sensor wand or have the Woolich AFR logging kit as well, you cant really make meaningful fuel and ignition map update decisions.

You will either be flashing the ECU on a work bench away from the bikes wiring harness and power or on the bike connected to the bikes wiring harness and power source.

If you will be working with a local tuner then I would hope they can address and discuss these issues right off the top of their head candidly and openly and that they have dealt witht SC77 Honda before - if not, then walk, no run away.

One thing also concerned me that I saw. It dealt with ECU recovery. What exactly is a failure writing to ECU?
You should be concerned, but not as a matter of panic, just a matter of common sense.

All ECU flashing (on all bikes with all tuner tools) involves a destructive erase of the existing data in the computer and writing back an unsupported hacked interpreted version of the original computer image altered without permission from the manufacturer.

Think of any ECU reflash as being no different to taking a brand new $1200 XBox One/PS4 console copying a hacked Firmware BIN file to the device. Yes its risky and no its not supported by the OEM but the process has been refined enough that the chances of a problem are very slim.

But as with any ECU reflash there are critical points in the process where if power is lost or a cable comes loose or if exposed to damaging static electric surge the ECU might be left in a bricked unusable state. This is just the nature of the beast and the risk that anyone that alters the firmware of any device accepts and also why its best to know what you're doing to minimize risk of an issue.

Also remember just because a write is successful, that does not mean all factory features are guaranteed to be working properly - and unless you already know how all the features of your bike work, you might not know you are missing critical capabilities after a reflash.

The Woolich flash previously disabled the Torque Management and nobody noticed - well I did but that's another story - but I am just pointing out that yes there is risk and as in life there are no guarantees. :)
 

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Hey RC45. The statement "it's best to know what you're doing" now has me concerned.

I have a reliable laptop and am a pretty sharp guy. I don't purport to be a genius but I think I can pull this off successfully with some help.

Are you gathering from my conversation that I shouldn't attempt to do this flash myself?
 

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I've been looking through the Woolich site and believe I see "some" of the things I need. Do I need to submit "assistance" tickets to Woolich?

I was ready to proceed with purchasing the product I mentioned above to begin preparing for this endeavor. But now the fuel and ignition issue should be left alone by me you're saying unless I purchase the afr hardware needed to mess with it? I know the shop I was planning on having install the fill exhaust and Power Commander, post flash, would be using a dyno to map fuel map modifications. Whether they have to do that via Woolich stuff or through Power Commander I'm not sure.
 

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Hi mate, there isn't anything to worry about really, yes there are inherent risks when flashing but the chances are very slim. I have however had to go through the 'ECU Recovery' process a little while ago but it was a combination of things combined which resulted in a bad flash. If anything, you should feel comfortable knowing that Woolich do offer great support, this I can testify to, so you won't be alone.
 
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