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The jungle drums I eaves drop in on indicate a proper 2021 model in the 2021 model year.
Ah, right. That's opposed to the 2021 model that should be a 2020 model being released ion the 2020 year!

It's beyond belief because you will have a '2021' model bearing the VIN check digit of 'L' rather than 'M'.:)
 

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I'm OK with that.

Just no more SPs...!
Until they send more SPs the next year, and the next. (y) The Ohlins ECS and OEM Brembo calipers are not limited production parts themselves, which is why total global SP production will be what ever the market can absorb.
 

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@Death CBR SP2 and how long did it take to get someone to create a good map and in what world is a stock CBR making 200 hp at the wheel with only an exhaust, tune and fuel? I stand by my statement. Also, MR12 isn't exactly a fair comparison and you know it....gains up to 11% --> VP introduces new MR12 racing fuel That would make a Panigale V4R put down over 220 at the wheel.
 

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Paying over MSRP for new models isn’t exclusively, but seems a regular thing, for SoCal. I’m used to reading about it for new vehicles like those mentioned (latest Raptor, Type R, M2), but laughing because those same vehicles hang around at dealerships in relatively small Canadian cities.

I guess if you want to have it first in that market, then it’s up to you to grease the dealers palm for something that will be more common and available on demand before long.

When I gave my dealer a deposit in Nov, they asked for 10% of our estimate at the time, with the agreement that I can back out if the price turned out to be higher, which it was, easily. We haven’t discussed details since we got the official MSRP, but I don’t expect them to ask for anything over and above. Since the Cdn/US models have a power cut compared to other markets, and there was a play on words about production numbers (limited availability vice limited production), I will aim to get some favourable pricing on other purchases I had planned to make.
 

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@Death CBR SP2 and how long did it take to get someone to create a good map and in what world is a stock CBR making 200 hp at the wheel with only an exhaust, tune and fuel? I stand by my statement. Also, MR12 isn't exactly a fair comparison and you know it....gains up to 11% --> VP introduces new MR12 racing fuel That would make a Panigale V4R put down over 220 at the wheel.
There was "no time" needed for any good maps. The same day Woolich released the base CBR BIN file tuners started tuning - same thing for the SP2.
Put bike on dyno, poke Wide Band O2 sensor into tail pipe, open Woolich and start tuning.

Now they may have had to wait for an SP2 owner to show up, but as soon as they did they started tuning.
And when they did, if they didn't follow the procedure I and another SP2 owner developed for Woolich then their Woolich flash session would fail - but thats more people being to stubborn to follow instructions that any fault of the bike or Woolich.

And as for "sources to modify the ECU" there are none because there is no need to "modify the ECU".
The ECU fuel and ignition tables are tuned - just like any other bike out there.

There is only one source for full featured working tunes - Woolich.
Flashtune cant change the rev limiter or lock out the front wheel speed sensor, so is not much use for dyno tuning the Honda.

For the last year at least, if not longer, the process has been refined to the point many SC77 owners are self tuning their Fireblades themselves.

Anyway, y'all can get back to your regular scheduled programming now :)
 

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@Death CBR SP2 and how long did it take to get someone to create a good map and in what world is a stock CBR making 200 hp at the wheel with only an exhaust, tune and fuel? I stand by my statement. Also, MR12 isn't exactly a fair comparison and you know it....gains up to 11% --> VP introduces new MR12 racing fuel That would make a Panigale V4R put down over 220 at the wheel.
your original comment was ..."The last gen CBR didn't have much support because the potential wasn't there so tuners didn't bother, although there are still a couple of sources that can modify the ecu."

this isn't true.. my comment was only to say that the potential is there .. I'm at or near ( I can't remember ) 192 or 194 rwhp on pump ...and it's not stock .... HRC parts .... look at my thread in my signature for the details ... the SP2 has the potential is my only point !!!!
 

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There was "no time" needed for any good maps. The same day Woolich released the base CBR BIN file tuners started tuning - same thing for the SP2.
Put bike on dyno, poke Wide Band O2 sensor into tail pipe, open Woolich and start tuning.

Now they may have had to wait for an SP2 owner to show up, but as soon as they did they started tuning.
And when they did, if they didn't follow the procedure I and another SP2 owner developed for Woolich then their Woolich flash session would fail - but thats more people being to stubborn to follow instructions that any fault of the bike or Woolich.

And as for "sources to modify the ECU" there are none because there is no need to "modify the ECU".
The ECU fuel and ignition tables are tuned - just like any other bike out there.

There is only one source for full featured working tunes - Woolich.
Flashtune cant change the rev limiter or lock out the front wheel speed sensor, so is not much use for dyno tuning the
Honda.

For the last year at least, if not longer, the process has been refined to the point many SC77 owners are self tuning their Fireblades themselves.

Anyway, y'all can get back to your regular scheduled programming now :)
^ You're joking, right? There are several threads on this forum, one in particular started by yourself, about how the SC77 was plagued with tuning problems, with several ECUs being locked because of procedural errors during the flashing process. The whole point of the flash is to optimize the ignition and fueling maps, and to eliminate timing restrictions programed by the factory. So to say the SC77 ECUs are already optimized from the factory is laughable at best. As recent as this year, Woolich had to fix a bug in their flash that disabled traction control. You yourself spent tens of thousands of dollars just to tune the bike. C'mon man...

The fact that SC77 owners can now tune at home doesn't erase that fact that the SC77 was a tuners nightmare at one point.
 

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^ You're joking, right? There are several threads on this forum, one in particular started by yourself, about how the SC77 was plagued with tuning problems, with several ECUs being locked because of procedural errors during the flashing process. The whole point of the flash is to optimize the ignition and fueling maps, and to eliminate timing restrictions programed by the factory. So to say the SC77 ECUs are already optimized from the factory is laughable at best. As recent as this year, Woolich had to fix a bug in their flash that disabled traction control. You yourself spent tens of thousands of dollars just to tune the bike. C'mon man...

The fact that SC77 owners can now tune at home doesn't erase that fact that the SC77 was a tuners nightmare at one point.
I never joke.

"So to say the SC77 ECUs are already optimized from the factory is laughable at best."
Where did I say that?

Its not plagued with tuning problems - never was, still not sure where you got that from? The bike wasn't as Honda advertised it would be, but that's different to "cant be worked with".

It was only a tuners nightmare for tuners that refused to listen.

There is a tuning company that released capability to tune the SC77 with their software, however THEIR program is the problem, not the ECU. And they never bothered fixing it further.

If you don't follow the procedure to work with Woolich, then you screw it up (same with the R1M BTW - very particular about taking off emissions equipment) - how is that any fault of anyone except the person not following the procedure?

And who do you think found the TC issue with the Woolich flash? I did. You are not telling me anything new - if there was a book, I could literally write it.

As Death says - the potential is there for anyone willing to listen and follow the appropriate path to extract said potential.

He followed the HRC path (stopped short of the ECU that would lose the Ohlins etc) and got really good results. Ten Kate followed the HRC/Ten Kate/Cosworth path and got excellent results with their SuperBike, SuperStock bikes and even customer race bikes.

The money I spent actually had little to do with tuning per se, the tuning is either done with Woolich's $750 kit or the HRC software and a dyno. I decided to try source the physical hard parts to build a WSBK in my back shed.

Every SP/SP2 fielding regional SuperBike team around the world followed the HRC path and had fantastic results cleaning up in Asia, Australia, New Zealand and Brazil.
All those SuperBike series were won using HRC optimized SC77s.

European and Australian SC77s are not restricted off the show room floor and are really good just like that - full exhaust, Powercommander and away you go. If they go the Woolich route they get even better results.

Ten Kate had a 190rwhp SP2 the first week it was in their hands back in 2017. Full WSBK Akropovic exhaust, their in-house PowerCommander and off they went to test the bike. The next day they pulled the Ohlins and ABS, so they had no need to keep the OEM ECU and went HRC to develop their SuperStock and SuperBike setups.

Hell, even the IOM/NW200 SuperStock SC77s in 2018 and 2019 ran HRC ECUs with stock motors in STK and Cosworth kitted Chris Mayhew ported heads motors in SBK

Again, the potential is there if approached correctly. Discovering how to approach it is the challenge :D
 

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"So to say the SC77 ECUs are already optimized from the factory is laughable at best."

Where did I say that?

Uhhh...you said it right here...

And as for "sources to modify the ECU" there are none because there is no need to "modify the ECU".
The ECU fuel and ignition tables are tuned - just like any other bike out there.

^ Your words dude, not mine. If there was no need to "modify the ECU", because the tables were tuned/optimized, there wouldn't be the capability baked into the Woolich software to modify the ignition and fuel maps, among other things. But of course, that's not the case at all.


Its not plagued with tuning problems - never was, still not sure where you got that from? The bike wasn't as Honda advertised it would be, but that's different to "cant be worked with".

It was only a tuners nightmare for tuners that refused to listen.

And who do you think found the TC issue with the Woolich flash? I did. You are not telling me anything new - if there was a book, I could literally write it.

Honda Admit 2017+ CBR1000RR is Fundamentally Flawed

^ Dude, this is your thread! For not being a jokester, you sure are funny lol

Again, your words, not mine. The fact that you found the TC issue lends even more strength to your argument that the 2017+ bike was a tuning nightmare. AND it's great that you discovered it, but it took almost 2 years! lol

Man, you got jokes.


As Death says - the potential is there for anyone willing to listen and follow the appropriate path to extract said potential.

No one said the bike isn't tunable, only that it was a pain to tune. For as nice of a bike that Death built, his original ECU ended up locked, and he had to purchase a new one. It doesn't matter which software he used, the fact is that it was a pain in the ass; or in other words, a tuning nightmare! The fact that you have to leave all of the emissions stuff hooked up, and then step by step remove equipment doesn't sound like the most practical way to tune. But that's the SC77 for you.


Ten Kate had a 190rwhp SP2 the first week it was in their hands back in 2017. Full WSBK Akropovic exhaust, their in-house PowerCommander and off they went to test the bike. The next day they pulled the Ohlins and ABS, so they had no need to keep the OEM ECU and went HRC to develop their SuperStock and SuperBike setups.

Hell, even the IOM/NW200 SuperStock SC77s in 2018 and 2019 ran HRC ECUs with stock motors in STK and Cosworth kitted Chris Mayhew ported heads motors in SBK

Again, the potential is there if approached correctly. Discovering how to approach it is the challenge :D

Yeah, Ten Kate...a professional race team/tuner with 30-40 years of experience. They aren't exactly the lay person trying to tune their bike...or a smaller outfit with less resources at their disposal (e.g. Woolich, etc). And again, no one is saying that these bikes aren't tuneable, or that they lack potential, just that they were a pain to tune. It's great that teams running the SC77 in the IOM/NW200 were able to extract its potential, as they well should. Aside from the ECU, which was the main culprit for all the issues out there, the SC77 is not much more than the SC59 with a revised head, bodywork, and electronics package. Hell, it's essentially a 9-10 year old platform
258019
 

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Uhhh...you said it right here...
Yes, I said exactly that, I know - I typed it::
And as for "sources to modify the ECU" there are none because there is no need to "modify the ECU".
The ECU fuel and ignition tables are tuned - just like any other bike out there.


And it means exactly what I said, not what you THINK it says.

You don't need to "modify" an ECU to tune fuel tables - you use available software to edit appropriate tables.

^ Your words dude, not mine. If there was no need to "modify the ECU", because the tables were tuned/optimized, there wouldn't be the capability baked into the Woolich software to modify the ignition and fuel maps, among other things. But of course, that's not the case at all.
Flashing a fuel table is not "modifying" an ECU - its updating a set of tables, no different to ANY other other motorcycle ECU that is having fuel TABLES edited. I chose to focus on the asinine word "modify" because its not some super secret method that only a few special people have the access and ability to do for these bikes as someone else eluded to.

Now if you are talking about the SC77 HRC ECU, then yes, Ten Kate (and I am sure FTECU and Woolich could do the same if they wanted) use low level tools to manually edit the firmware to update the embedded gearing and base fuel tables so that the HRC WSBK ECU can be used on a stock engine since the HRC ECU is expecting a full kit modded engine and the base fuel and ignition setup is far too aggressive for use on a stock engine.

But no suck trickery is needed on the street ECU since Woolich have their tools for sale.

So again - there are no sources needed to MODIFY the ECU (the way Ten Kate did to my HRC ECU when I sent it in) - the ECU fuel and ignition tables are tuned/edited via a simple to use Windows based tool - just like any other bike out there.

Honda Admit 2017+ CBR1000RR is Fundamentally Flawed

^ Dude, this is your thread! For not being a jokester, you sure are funny lol
Again, if you want to make a big deal, then at least understand what the other person said - did you even read the thread properly? The gist of the thread is that Honda did not provide a dash board accessible interface to EDIT the tire and sprocket sizes.and then Honda went on to say if you do change sprockets and tires we won't tell how it might misbehave and we won't support the bike.

So yes, I know what I said and it is not what you think I said.

Again, your words, not mine. The fact that you found the TC issue lends even more strength to your argument that the 2017+ bike was a tuning nightmare. AND it's great that you discovered it, but it took almost 2 years! lol

Man, you got jokes.
Again - What does Woolich making a programming error in THEIR code have to do with the Honda's ECU?
Notice how Woolich were able to fix THEIR programming error within a month or so of being notified.

No one said the bike isn't tunable, only that it was a pain to tune. For as nice of a bike that Death built, his original ECU ended up locked, and he had to purchase a new one. It doesn't matter which software he used, the fact is that it was a pain in the ass; or in other words, a tuning nightmare! The fact that you have to leave all of the emissions stuff hooked up, and then step by step remove equipment doesn't sound like the most practical way to tune. But that's the SC77 for you.
Yes Deaths ECU was bricked (and not really - more like Locked) by FTECUs software, nothing to do with Honda.
FTECU as a matter of habit, leave FTECU tuned ECUs locked and unable to be retuned by any other platform - nothing to with Honda - That was ALL on FTECU.

And as for the step by step procedure regarding emissions equipment, again - not limited to Honda, the new R1M also has similar requirements - and guess what, they are part of Euro and EPA mandated features to prevent tampering - again, not Honda or Woolich or Yamaha - but rather the Euro and US Feds.

Yeah, Ten Kate...a professional race team/tuner with 30-40 years of experience. They aren't exactly the lay person trying to tune their bike...or a smaller outfit with less resources at their disposal (e.g. Woolich, etc).
A full exhaust and a Powercommander (or Bazzazz or RapidBike etc) is not rocket science. What they did was the bare minimum basics that any garage mechanic could do. And Woolich is not as small as you may think - they have been awarded MotoGP and WSBK contracts as ECU management providers. Essentially they are on a par with Magnetti Marelli and Motec as far as spec ECUs goes.

And again, no one is saying that these bikes aren't tuneable, or that they lack potential, just that they were a pain to tune. It's great that teams running the SC77 in the IOM/NW200 were able to extract its potential, as they well should. Aside from the ECU, which was the main culprit for all the issues out there, the SC77 is not much more than the SC59 with a revised head, bodywork, and electronics package. Hell, it's essentially a 9-10 year old platform
Still not sure how they are pain to tune.
Tuning the SC77 ECU could not be simpler. Ask any of the SC77 home tuners or shop tuners.
I think not many tuners worked on the SC77 because few people took them to them. And when they did get the SC77s in they didn't Read The Fucking Manual Woolich provided :)

Kawasaki H2 and ZX14 could also be considered a pain to tune. You have to be hooked up to the Internet so that the Kawasaki supplied license can be validated while you write tot he ECU - talk about potential for disaster. And then after you finish you have to turn the bike off and then on and start it and idle for 10 seconds. Then turn it off and on again and start and idle for another 10 seconds,

How about the BMW S1000RR - some of the tuning and unlocking features require the ECU, ignition and keys AND dash unit be sent in for tuning and unlocking if you do not bring the bike in.
And at the end of the exercise all the emissions equipment is still hooked up (like the new Ducati V4 bikes).

The SC77 is a modern complex multi system managed motorcycle and as with all modern motorcycles, the ability to tune relies on the Tuning Vendors like FTECU and Woolich actually having to hack into the ECU and snoop its comms to then be able to write their software to overwrite the factory image and facilitate editing those pesky tables.

This is true for all new bikes and each of them ends up with a very specific process and procedure to successfully edit the stock fuel and ignition tables and alter values and attributes of other features depending on the tuning vendor.

Either way it seems you agree with us, the SC77 has potential and is able to be modified if you know what to do.
This will also be true for the SC82 - if you know what to do, it will be tunable and modifiable.
 

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your original comment was ..."The last gen CBR didn't have much support because the potential wasn't there so tuners didn't bother, although there are still a couple of sources that can modify the ecu."

this isn't true.. my comment was only to say that the potential is there .. I'm at or near ( I can't remember ) 192 or 194 rwhp on pump ...and it's not stock .... HRC parts .... look at my thread in my signature for the details ... the SP2 has the potential is my only point !!!!

baseline post flash .. pump ..and MR12 .. the potential is there
 

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Yes, I said exactly that, I know - I typed it::
And as for "sources to modify the ECU" there are none because there is no need to "modify the ECU".
The ECU fuel and ignition tables are tuned - just like any other bike out there.


And it means exactly what I said, not what you THINK it says.

You don't need to "modify" an ECU to tune fuel tables - you use available software to edit appropriate tables.


Flashing a fuel table is not "modifying" an ECU - its updating a set of tables, no different to ANY other other motorcycle ECU that is having fuel TABLES edited. I chose to focus on the asinine word "modify" because its not some super secret method that only a few special people have the access and ability to do for these bikes as someone else eluded to.

Now if you are talking about the SC77 HRC ECU, then yes, Ten Kate (and I am sure FTECU and Woolich could do the same if they wanted) use low level tools to manually edit the firmware to update the embedded gearing and base fuel tables so that the HRC WSBK ECU can be used on a stock engine since the HRC ECU is expecting a full kit modded engine and the base fuel and ignition setup is far too aggressive for use on a stock engine.

But no suck trickery is needed on the street ECU since Woolich have their tools for sale.

So again - there are no sources needed to MODIFY the ECU (the way Ten Kate did to my HRC ECU when I sent it in) - the ECU fuel and ignition tables are tuned/edited via a simple to use Windows based tool - just like any other bike out there.


Again, if you want to make a big deal, then at least understand what the other person said - did you even read the thread properly? The gist of the thread is that Honda did not provide a dash board accessible interface to EDIT the tire and sprocket sizes.and then Honda went on to say if you do change sprockets and tires we won't tell how it might misbehave and we won't support the bike.

So yes, I know what I said and it is not what you think I said.


Again - What does Woolich making a programming error in THEIR code have to do with the Honda's ECU?
Notice how Woolich were able to fix THEIR programming error within a month or so of being notified.


Yes Deaths ECU was bricked (and not really - more like Locked) by FTECUs software, nothing to do with Honda.
FTECU as a matter of habit, leave FTECU tuned ECUs locked and unable to be retuned by any other platform - nothing to with Honda - That was ALL on FTECU.

And as for the step by step procedure regarding emissions equipment, again - not limited to Honda, the new R1M also has similar requirements - and guess what, they are part of Euro and EPA mandated features to prevent tampering - again, not Honda or Woolich or Yamaha - but rather the Euro and US Feds.


A full exhaust and a Powercommander (or Bazzazz or RapidBike etc) is not rocket science. What they did was the bare minimum basics that any garage mechanic could do. And Woolich is not as small as you may think - they have been awarded MotoGP and WSBK contracts as ECU management providers. Essentially they are on a par with Magnetti Marelli and Motec as far as spec ECUs goes.


Still not sure how they are pain to tune.
Tuning the SC77 ECU could not be simpler. Ask any of the SC77 home tuners or shop tuners.
I think not many tuners worked on the SC77 because few people took them to them. And when they did get the SC77s in they didn't Read The Fucking Manual Woolich provided :)

Kawasaki H2 and ZX14 could also be considered a pain to tune. You have to be hooked up to the Internet so that the Kawasaki supplied license can be validated while you write tot he ECU - talk about potential for disaster. And then after you finish you have to turn the bike off and then on and start it and idle for 10 seconds. Then turn it off and on again and start and idle for another 10 seconds,

How about the BMW S1000RR - some of the tuning and unlocking features require the ECU, ignition and keys AND dash unit be sent in for tuning and unlocking if you do not bring the bike in.
And at the end of the exercise all the emissions equipment is still hooked up (like the new Ducati V4 bikes).

The SC77 is a modern complex multi system managed motorcycle and as with all modern motorcycles, the ability to tune relies on the Tuning Vendors like FTECU and Woolich actually having to hack into the ECU and snoop its comms to then be able to write their software to overwrite the factory image and facilitate editing those pesky tables.

This is true for all new bikes and each of them ends up with a very specific process and procedure to successfully edit the stock fuel and ignition tables and alter values and attributes of other features depending on the tuning vendor.

Either way it seems you agree with us, the SC77 has potential and is able to be modified if you know what to do.
This will also be true for the SC82 - if you know what to do, it will be tunable and modifiable.
Good god man...your use of Orwellian doublespeak is disturbing. You went through all this trouble to debate semantics and try to reverse course by contradicting yourself? Wow...LOL

BTW, no one is making more of a bigger deal about this than yourself with your sportbike manifesto. It's your modus operandi on any and all subjects related to the SC77, whether it's your position or someone else's. And quite frankly, I don't understand why...but, to each their own...
 

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Good god man...your use of Orwellian doublespeak is disturbing. You went through all this trouble to debate semantics and try to reverse course by contradicting yourself? Wow...LOL

BTW, no one is making more of a bigger deal about this than yourself with your sportbike manifesto. It's your modus operandi on any and all subjects related to the SC77, whether it's your position or someone else's. And quite frankly, I don't understand why...but, to each their own...
I know exactly what I said and what I know regarding this platform and have probably forgotten more about them than most people will know - your not being able to understand that is not on me.

I have not contradicted anything I have said - you not knowing the difference between modifying an ECU and editing fuel tables is again your problem not mine.

And YOU are the one that made a big fucking deal by going off and digging up old posts to quote and reference (incorrectly I might add) - and that quite frankly I don't understand why you would do that unless you specifically wanted conflict.
 

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Why has this thread totally derailed from the 2020/21 bike confirmed orders to another lengthy debate on the merits or otherwise of the SP2's tuning capabilities?:unsure:
 

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Why has this thread totally derailed from the 2020/21 bike confirmed orders to another lengthy debate on the merits or otherwise of the SP2's tuning capabilities?:unsure:
Because as you can see there are jerks on both sides of the Atlantic.
 
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