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Was also done on CBR600RR starting in 2009. Anyone know why they crippled top end?

 

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I've heard US noise emission tests are done at a certain fraction of RPM where peak power is made and that is the reason ignition retard was done.

Another, somewhat plausible idea is that fuel octane is different in USA and the retard helps mitigate knock.

It's often the case manufacturers have to cripple the bike to meet legal requirements. Honda even resorted to stuffing the intake with foam on the USA RR-R.
 

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Yeah, regulations really make mess of things. Some JDM models are down -30-40% on power compared to international models.
 

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It was/is a noise emissions rule. There is a test point that happens at 1/2 rpm of the power peak. If I remember correctly, this was more associated with a California rule, but that might be complete bs.....

But, the idea makes sense. If the power peak is 14,000 rpm the test point is 7000.

Restrict that down to 10,000 and the test point drops to 5000. Much easier to pass the test .

You'll notice this is t just a Honda thing. Most bikes built after @ 2005 have this awesome stock tuning.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
USA 2008-2016 bikes have ignition retarded 5 extra degrees from 10-13k. This can be removed with an ECU flash, or a crude method is to use Z-bomb/IRC. It's a fairly substantial ~8-9hp gain.
Can I 'flash' the ECU myself or is that a stealership money maker? If so, how much?
I've heard US noise emission tests are done at a certain fraction of RPM where peak power is made and that is the reason ignition retard was done. Another, somewhat plausible idea is that fuel octane is different in USA and the retard helps mitigate knock. It's often the case manufacturers have to cripple the bike to meet legal requirements. Honda even resorted to stuffing the intake with foam on the USA RR-R.
You bring up a point I'm researching. Since pump gas is never near its listed octane rating and is loaded w/ ethanoI, detergents & other crap I always add 10oz. of TORCO Accelerator octane booster & I am absolutely convinced it improves performance. Even if I'm only boosting to 98octane its still a helluva lot better than what's probably 80 at best.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
USA 2008-2016 bikes have ignition retarded 5 extra degrees from 10-13k. This can be removed with an ECU flash, or a crude method is to use Z-bomb/IRC. It's a fairly substantial ~8-9hp gain.
Can I 'flash' the ECU myself or is that a stealership money maker? If so, how much?
I've heard US noise emission tests are done at a certain fraction of RPM where peak power is made and that is the reason ignition retard was done.

Another, somewhat plausible idea is that fuel octane is different in USA and the retard helps mitigate knock.

It's often the case manufacturers have to cripple the bike to meet legal requirements. Honda even resorted to stuffing the intake with foam on the USA RR-R.
You bring up a point I'm researching. Since pump gas is never near its listed octane rating and is loaded w/ ethanoI, detergents & other crap I always add 10oz. of TORCO Accelerator octane booster & I am absolutely convinced it improves performance. Even if I'm only boosting to 98octane its still a helluva lot better than what's probably 80 at best.
 

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Can I 'flash' the ECU myself or is that a stealership money maker? If so, how much? You bring up a point I'm researching. Since pump gas is never near its listed octane rating and is loaded w/ ethanoI, detergents & other crap I always add 10oz. of TORCO Accelerator octane booster & I am absolutely convinced it improves performance. Even if I'm only boosting to 98octane its still a helluva lot better than what's probably 80 at best.
ECU flash can be done by yourself if you have a way to read/write from the ECU and have the BIN definition that allows you to know what you're changing in a software like TunerPro. That is the only open source way to do it. Otherwise, you will have to resort to companies like Woolich that lock your ECU down to their software.

Aftermarket octane boosters use manganese compounds to increase octane. Over time, this will cause orange colored engine deposits that are quite difficult to remove. Most race gas formulations do not use metal additives to raise octane, rather the actual hydrocarbon components are different.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
ECU flash can be done by yourself if you have a way to read/write from the ECU and have the BIN definition that allows you to know what you're changing in a software like TunerPro. That is the only open source way to do it. Otherwise, you will have to resort to companies like Woolich that lock your ECU down to their software.

Aftermarket octane boosters use manganese compounds to increase octane. Over time, this will cause orange colored engine deposits that are quite difficult to remove. Most race gas formulations do not use metal additives to raise octane, rather the actual hydrocarbon components are different.
Your talking about MMT. I think TORCO says it can contain up to 10% MMT. Here's a TORCO review on Amazon:
For high end or turbo/super charged vehicles this stuff is magic in a bottle!
Reviewed in the United States on April 13, 2017
Verified Purchase
Was pretty sceptical of anything like this as I have tried numerous products in the past and I either noticed no difference or worse performance. Now that I have a supercharged mustang gt, I tend to try to keep the fuel ratings over 93. This stuff made a very noticeable difference in my car. I dynoed at 514 on a DD dyno without it on 93 octane pump gas. I put a bottle of this in the tank and put 10 gallons in the car and it was a different car entirely. Gas mileage went from 19 mpg to 22 and the throttle response was insane with this. If you have a high power car, throttle response is a big deal and you will understand this.

The car just felt overall way more powerful and the gas mileage went up. Don't see a negative to that. If you are looking for a nice octane boost then this is it. It works. It may be a little pricey but if you just want to dump it in for a dyno run (haven't tried that yet but need to) or for daily driving (tried that 3x now and makes a HUGE difference) then this is for you.

Now this is not a miracle in a bottle so don't misunderstand me. You aren't going to put this in your old beater and gain massive power. This is for vehicles that need high octane. My car was tuned for 93 octane but gets really nice gains from this. I would suggest this for anyone with an aftermarket tuned setup that needs higher octane. If nothing else, it will give you piece of mind that you have high enough octane to not worry about pinging and whatnot.

19 people found this helpful
 

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Interesting that the Amazon reviewer didn't have an "after" dyno-test to verify changes from using the stuff. Typically boosters using organo-metallics have non-linear response curve. Initial amounts gives most of octane boosting, and doubling it results in minimal gains. Better to use high-octane aromatics as their octane-increasing effects are more linear. And no nasty deposits in your engine. That Trump-orange you see on plugs is not just on plugs, but also coats your valves and pistons.

 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Interesting that the Amazon reviewer didn't have an "after" dyno-test to verify changes from using the stuff. Typically boosters using organo-metallics have non-linear response curve. Initial amounts gives most of octane boosting, and doubling it results in minimal gains. Better to use high-octane aromatics as their octane-increasing effects are more linear. And no nasty deposits in your engine. That Trump-orange you see on plugs is not just on plugs, but also coats your valves and pistons.

Did ^ that motor run TORCO?
Font Parallel Document Paper Number
 

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Did ^ that motor run TORCO?
Yup, Torco Accelerator octane-booster uses organo-metallic MMT and leaves cheetos dust everywhere.

Toroco race-fuel and others like VP uses aromatic hydrocarbons such as xylene or toluene (F1 rocket fuel) to increase octane for zero deposits.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Yup, Torco Accelerator octane-booster uses organo-metallic MMT and leaves cheetos dust everywhere.

Toroco race-fuel and others like VP uses aromatic hydrocarbons such as xylene or toluene (F1 rocket fuel) to increase octane for zero deposits.
Using a blend of components to transform the make up of premium pump gas to closely resemble race fuel is Torco’s Unleaded Fuel Accelerator. This octane booster will significantly raise the octane of premium fuel (91 octane) to 102 octane, when using a 32-ounce bottle with 10 gallons of gas. When using a 32-ounce bottle with 5 gallons of fuel, expect 105-octane performance.

It’s an extremely effective race fuel concentrate that will not harm oxygen sensors or catalytic converters. It is one of the more expensive options on our list since it’s sold in a 32-ounce bottle, but it’s great for getting every bit of performance out of your engine. Unfortunately, like racing fuel, it does have a very short shelf life so you’ll want to use it as quickly as possible.
 

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I do not know of any non-MMT octane booster on the market today. All the octane boosters (Boostane, Torco, STP, VP Maddative, etc) use MMT that will leave those deposits in the motor.

Race fuel is more than an additive package. The base formulation is fundamentally different from pump gas and there is no "concentrate" you can add to make pump gas into a clean burning deposit-free race fuel equivalent.

The next time you remove the exhaust headers, take a look at the exhaust valves and ports. If you are using octane booster regularly, they will be covered in orange dust. Same for spark plugs, pistons, and combustion chamber.

Also, there is no benefit to octane booster if you are running a stock map that is retarded well below the knock limit. Any power gain from octane booster is not from the additive itself, but rather the potential for additional ignition advance that would have resulted in knocking with lower octane fuel.
 

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Using a blend of components to transform the make up of premium pump gas to closely resemble race fuel is Torco’s Unleaded Fuel Accelerator. This octane booster will significantly raise the octane of premium fuel (91 octane) to 102 octane, when using a 32-ounce bottle with 10 gallons of gas. When using a 32-ounce bottle with 5 gallons of fuel, expect 105-octane performance.

It’s an extremely effective race fuel concentrate that will not harm oxygen sensors or catalytic converters. It is one of the more expensive options on our list since it’s sold in a 32-ounce bottle, but it’s great for getting every bit of performance out of your engine. Unfortunately, like racing fuel, it does have a very short shelf life so you’ll want to use it as quickly as possible.
That's marketing spiel and not single piece of useful information. For example:

  • what compounds are used to create octane boost?
  • how many degrees more ignition advance can you run?
  • how much more compression can you run?
  • what percentage gains in HP will you get?

Without actual numbers, it's all snake-oil. "buy my magic elixir! It will regrow your lost hair, trim your belly and increase your height!!"

Very least you can do is dyno-test your bike before and after adding the snake-oil. Then you'll have some real numbers to look at rather than regurgitating the koolaid...
 

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I do not know of any non-MMT octane booster on the market today. All the octane boosters (Boostane, Torco, STP, VP Maddative, etc) use MMT that will leave those deposits in the motor.

Race fuel is more than an additive package. The base formulation is fundamentally different from pump gas and there is no "concentrate" you can add to make pump gas into a clean burning deposit-free race fuel equivalent.

The next time you remove the exhaust headers, take a look at the exhaust valves and ports. If you are using octane booster regularly, they will be covered in orange dust. Same for spark plugs, pistons, and combustion chamber.

Also, there is no benefit to octane booster if you are running a stock map that is retarded well below the knock limit. Any power gain from octane booster is not from the additive itself, but rather the potential for additional ignition advance that would have resulted in knocking with lower octane fuel.
Yup, stock bike has maps fully optimised for it. You won't make any additional power running higher octane than it was designed for.

To take advantage of extra octane petrol, you'll need to:

  • replace pistons with higher-compression versions
  • increase ignition advance
  • increase fuel maps to account for extra burn-time of more ignition

All this requires before and after dyno-runs to understand cause & effect. It's like building muscle, "yeah, just eat extra protein and you'll automatically look like Ahhnold overnight!!!"
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
High compression motors are octane ravenous motors and pump gas is NEVER the octane its rated at so in effect as proven by B&A dyno tests adding an octane booster can increase engine power output. Lifting weights IF DONE INTENSELY ENOUGH will create a need for additional nitrogen (protein) to maintain homeostasis (this I am VERY familiar w/) so increasing a person's protein intake WILL increase a person's response to strength training IF THEY ARE PROTEIN DEFICIENT much a like a high compression motor using pump gas is going to be octane deficient.
 

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Interesting that the Amazon reviewer didn't have an "after" dyno-test to verify changes from using the stuff. Typically boosters using organo-metallics have non-linear response curve. Initial amounts gives most of octane boosting, and doubling it results in minimal gains. Better to use high-octane aromatics as their octane-increasing effects are more linear. And no nasty deposits in your engine. That Trump-orange you see on plugs is not just on plugs, but also coats your valves and pistons.

And that cheeto dust doesn't clear itself out after stopping octane booster usage, does it? It's there until you pull the parts and clean them manually?
 
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