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MAD SCIENTIST
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
LiFePo4 batteries are a relatively new technology and as some of my tests show they are suitable for total loss systems on modern fuel injected race bikes.
A 12v 10Ah LiFePo4 battery thet weighes 1.5kg will comprise of 4 of the "E" size cells in this pic. Cost me $48 AUD each cell. LiFePO4 stands for Lithium Iron Phosphate.


A special LiFePO4 charger is required. Charging cycles differ from lead acid.
AUD$180 for a 10 amp charger. Approx. 1 minute charging with a 10 amp charger is required after 1 minute riding.

 

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MAD SCIENTIST
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561 Posts
Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Assembly will look something like this.
Note my bike has an external MotoGP style starter so the cables you see here are low amperage for pump and ECU only



In this shot you can see Ive trimmed back the studs and that they are hollow.
One stud is copper and the other is aluminium. So you will have to take great care in
tightening the aluminium one.




 

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MAD SCIENTIST
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561 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
A dash mounted voltmeter would be required



Proper shock proofing for protection in crashes. The batteries are not flammable or volatile like Lithium Cobalt batteries.

 

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MAD SCIENTIST
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Discussion Starter #4
Here is the voltage Data from the first ride day at Eastern Creek.
I did the first 4 out of 6 sessions without recharging and the battery voltage dropped to 12.3v during the 4th session. The four sessions totaled 71 minutes but during the 1 hour breaks the battery recuperated on average 0.1v.
start volts...................................end volts
engine off....runtime...run volts...engine off....charge time
13.49...........15min.....12.7.......13.15........ ....0
13.23...........17min.....12.6.......13.03........ ....0
13.15...........20min.....12.5.......12.97........ ....0
13.10...........20min.....12.3.......12.87........ ....55min
13.35...........17min.....12.7.......13.08........ ....53min
13.78...........rain
 

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MAD SCIENTIST
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Discussion Starter #5
Heres a few words from the dealer about fire hazard.

Glad you were happy with the performance.
The cells are only new so they will probably gain a bit of performance once you cycle them a few times.

The BMI LiFePO4 cells you have are the safest batteries available. They will not/can not catch on fire. In fact if you put a cell in a fire it will help to smother the fire to put it out. LiFePO4 batteries are a very stable chemistry and are even safer than your old SLA battery. I have seen the tests from the USA where they test the safety of LiFePO4. I have seen the results of where they fire a gun at the cell. The bullet passes through and leaves a hole but the cell is in every other way intact and doesn't catch on fire. This is in start contrast to a Lithium Cobalt Oxide based battery which is very reactive and can catch on fire or explode if abused or impacted. This is the type of lithium ion battery used in mobile phone batteries, camcorders and many laptop computer batteries. These were the batteries which were recalled by Dell when a few caught on fire. Lithium Polymer batteries act in a similar fashion to cobalt oxide batteries and it would not be advisable to use these either on your bike unless you wanted a special effect of a big flame shooting out the back while you are tearing down the racetrack!
Due to the fire hazard of most lithium batteries they are prohibited to be carried or transported on passenger aircraft. My BMI LiFePO4 cells however are approved for carriage on passenger aircraft since are exempt under IATA regulations and meet the requirements of special provision of A45.

And the construction.

It is all solid, no liquid. This is why the batteries can be operated in any orientation.
It is a white powder which is manufactured in Canada and Germany which goes into making the cells.
 

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Thanks for sharing the info. I've just bought a pair of 6.6v lithium nanowire batteries made by Duralite (usual application is remote control airplanes) which will be connected in series. I haven't weighed them but they feel about half the OEM battery.

Have you checked out durbahn.de; he claims that these batteries can be run with the charging system on the bike. I'm not sure about going total loss just yet as half the track days here are actually nights and I will have to run lights.
 

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MAD SCIENTIST
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Discussion Starter #9
very interesting...thank you!
so we could junk the stator/charging system correct?
Yes, if youre at a race day or track day and plan to recharge between every race / session, you can remove the charging system BUT keep the starter motor.
The tests I did were on my CBR1000RR that has no starter system or charging system.
 

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MAD SCIENTIST
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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks for sharing the info. I've just bought a pair of 6.6v lithium nanowire batteries made by Duralite (usual application is remote control airplanes) which will be connected in series. I haven't weighed them but they feel about half the OEM battery.

Have you checked out durbahn.de; he claims that these batteries can be run with the charging system on the bike. I'm not sure about going total loss just yet as half the track days here are actually nights and I will have to run lights.
Check the fire hazard with the Nano battery. not sure if they are as safe as the LiFePO4.
You can run an alternator with LiFePO4 and in a passenger vehicle application, LiFePO4 actually use less fuel because the spend less time charging / loading the alternator.
 

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black as night
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The cells are only new so they will probably gain a bit of performance once you cycle them a few times.
I bet you will see a difference after some cycles.

Do you know if you can match the cells output numbers to get better results?

How much does a lead acid battery weigh? Also did you weigh all the shock proof stuff?
 

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MAD SCIENTIST
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Discussion Starter #14
I bet you will see a difference after some cycles.

Do you know if you can match the cells output numbers to get better results?
Im not fussed about getting a few more milliamp hours out of it. They so over perform right now, Im happy with them.

How much does a lead acid battery weigh? Also did you weigh all the shock proof stuff?
The lead acid I was using was 2kg but it was only a YTX5 and it was being overtaxed so badly it wouldnt last more than a season. I was spending more on lead acid in a year and a half than the LiFePO4's cost me outright and they will last 3 to 4 years.
The 4 cells by them selves weigh 1.4kg but I put 200gr of foam on it, mostly to take up the room around them so they wouldnt rattle.
..
 

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Check the fire hazard with the Nano battery. not sure if they are as safe as the LiFePO4.
You can run an alternator with LiFePO4 and in a passenger vehicle application, LiFePO4 actually use less fuel because the spend less time charging / loading the alternator.
From the instruction sheet that came with the batteries;
"Duralite A123 Lithium Phosphate 2300 mAh packs feature a non combustible chemistry which simply means that they will not ignite if the cells are shorted or punctured."

I guess the chemistry is close to or the same as what you have. I researched the A123 systems website before buying these which is where I got the idea that they are nanowire. The instruction sheet describes them as lithium phosphate and the Duralite website describes them as lithium nanophosphate which i guess is all the same. The A123 website explains the use of silicon nanowire and I have read elsewhere about batteries using titanium nanowires (I think mostly used in cordless tools).

I have two Duralite 6464HC batteries which are 4600 mAh each (not 2300 mAh as above) and I will probably test with and without the alternator plugged in and remove the alternator later if happy. My bike is in pieces at the moment (more upgrades) so I'll add details here when finished.

The two batteries and connecting lead I made weigh 694g. My kitchen scale wouldn't weigh the OEM which is a Yuasa YTZ10S; their website specification is 3.2kg so quite a weight saving!
 

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MAD SCIENTIST
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Discussion Starter #17
M48 are the individual 6464HC's 12v or 6v. Need to figure out what amp hourage they make when there are 2 of them together. If you want to go total loss you need to have 10Ah at least. You need so much reserve so as not to over tax the cells. They need to cope easily.
 

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Each pack is 6.6V. In theory (finally found the formula I was after) I should have 4.6Ah so I'll stick to running an alternator for now. Another two in parallel should give enough (not quite 10Ah) but that will have to wait. I'm in the market for a data logger so I'll log voltage and try to set up a temperature sensor and log the battery temperature as well.
 

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MAD SCIENTIST
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Discussion Starter #19
Crap.... the Yuasa YTZ10S is only 8.6Ah
for 3.5kg...that sux mostly
 

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MAD SCIENTIST
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Discussion Starter #20
Did a whole Drag Race meeting without charging.
6 runs and never went below 12.3v
At the start of the night engine off voltage was 13.6 and the next morning was 13.1.
 
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