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It is pretty wild how perfectly the S1000RR and CBR1000RR-R overlap at the top end. There will probably be times around town I wish I had the extra low-end power that the S1000RR has, but overall I think I'll be quite satisfied. Still prefer the Fireblade, of course.

Thanks to everyone who played a part in cracking the ECU and tuning these. While the cost of the bike is still a bit high compared to the competition, it's a lot more palatable un-nerfed.
 

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Cool video.

can someone explain this to me. All the people offering tunes, say "we are developing something" or we "have developed"

Now, with the info posted in the other thread by PufTheMagic, getting into the CPU is not something every shmo can do. Need software engineering and some hacking skills.

What are these guys talking about when they say "we developed"?

Are they taking someone else's, like what @PuffTheMagic has and develop a map?

Who makes the dongle that plugs into the ECU
who "figures out how to unlock the CPU"? is it the same people who make the connector?
who figures out what to program into the CPU? is that what each tuner does?

This market must be a mix of Hardware / Software engineers / hackers + people who know how engines work and make the maps, etc. I have a hard time believing that a single tuner (like danos or brentuning or KCS) do all of it by themselves.

I'm so curious to know what the supply chain is like in the "tuner" market?
 

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This is all speculation...

I'm assuming they are talking specifically about developing the tune. They are a lot more complex now than a decade or two ago, so it would take a fair amount of effort to develop one. Especially in the case of the SC82 that came gimped from the factory...

I do believe more credit should be given to the people that made it possible to even have the tools possible to develop a tune. In my opinion, breaking into the ECU takes more effort since you're essentially trying to do something that efforts have been made to inhibit.

Both are work and deserve credit. Would be nice to see these tuners at least gave credit to people that created the tools their work depends on, but I suspect they worry about losing work by mentioning where they can conveniently flash their bikes from home. Tuning is still going to give the best results, but a base tune is still significantly better than factory in this case.

Curious to know more behind-the-scenes as well.
 

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I have a hard time believing that a single tuner (like danos or brentuning or KCS) do all of it by themselves.
^^ These guys are just tuning; doing dyno runs and then clicking buttons in (and limited by the constraints of) software other people wrote. They are not doing any of the reverse engineering required to expose maps/tables/switches in the ECU or to create the software needed to perform the flash. Dano's exclusively uses Woolich tuning/flashing software. KCS uses my kline flash software and TunerPro with a modified FT def to tune the SC77. Bren uses my canbus flash software and WinOLS with a def from his EU partner to tune the SC82. To be fair to Bren and their use of "developed", I'm sure they did some testing/debugging of the definition his EU partner created just like HRP & CodeFactory (in the EU) and LWS Tuning (in the US) do testing for me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
^^ These guys are just tuning; doing dyno runs and then clicking buttons in (and limited by the constraints of) software other people wrote. They are not doing any of the reverse engineering required to expose maps/tables/switches in the ECU or to create the software needed to perform the flash. Dano's exclusively uses Woolich tuning/flashing software. KCS uses my kline flash software and TunerPro with a modified FT def to tune the SC77. Bren uses my canbus flash software and WinOLS with a def from his EU partner to tune the SC82. To be fair to Bren and their use of "developed", I'm sure they did some testing/debugging of the definition his EU partner created just like HRP & CodeFactory (in the EU) and LWS Tuning (in the US) do testing for me.
I hate to say this because you're well known but you sound quite bitter. If I use occam's razer here, why isn't everyone else doing this if it's just nudging and so easy? No one has publicly released anything yet except for them from what I'm seeing.

There also isn't one mention in the video of Bren developing it himself. He said he had a group of people that figured it out together. They haven't even figured out remote solutions yet, it's only in-house as of now. It's still at least something and seems to be quite effective. Until I see actual running proof of anything else, I'll be waiting for their remote solution.
 

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I hate to say this because you're well known but you sound quite bitter. If I use occam's razer here, why isn't everyone else doing this if it's just nudging and so easy? No one has publicly released anything yet except for them from what I'm seeing.

There also isn't one mention in the video of Bren developing it himself. He said he had a group of people that figured it out together. They haven't even figured out remote solutions yet, it's only in-house as of now. It's still at least something and seems to be quite effective. Until I see actual running proof of anything else, I'll be waiting for their remote solution.
What do you mean nobody has publicly released anything? Many people have already flashed their bike with MCU's. I've bought the license and equipment and am only waiting to get to my country.

He was clarifying the earlier question regarding what "developed" means -- which in this case he probably assisted with testing and debugging of the flashing software he's using, as well as developing the actual tune. Nothing sounds that bitter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
What do you mean nobody has publicly released anything? Many people have already flashed their bike with MCU's. I've bought the license and equipment and am only waiting to get to my country.

He was clarifying the earlier question regarding what "developed" means -- which in this case he probably assisted with testing and debugging of the flashing software he's using, as well as developing the actual tune. Nothing sounds that bitter.
Maybe I'm mistaken and if that's the case, I apologize. I do know from talking to them that the euro file will not work on US bikes. Cam position errors, wrong wiring, etc. Do you know where on MCU's website they're offering this tune? Videos and numbers provided?
 

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I hate to say this because you're well known but you sound quite bitter.
If I sound bitter it is because I am tired of the false claims. Holzhauer Racing Promotions hired me to develop the CANbus master tool for them back in December 2020. They were tuning the SC82 all January. I didn't sell anyone else a license to my master tool until February, and almost immediately, Brentuning made a video claiming to be the first which was just a flat out lie. They were the first to make a video of their tuning efforts. But by no means were they the first to tune an SC82.

If I use occam's razer here, why isn't everyone else doing this if it's just nudging and so easy?
I have no clue what you are saying here. Who said anything was easy?

No one has publicly released anything yet except for them from what I'm seeing.
I am the only one who has "released" anything. They are performing a service with my software.

There also isn't one mention in the video of Bren developing it himself. He said he had a group of people that figured it out together. They haven't even figured out remote solutions yet, it's only in-house as of now. It's still at least something and seems to be quite effective.
LOL. "group of people" could they be any more vague. That group is me, who figured out and wrote software to do the flashing, and then his EU partner that creates his ECU definition. Neither Bren or his EU partner is a software developer or reverse engineer, so if they are actually working a "remote solution", which I highly doubt, then his EU partner and one of his cronies is actively trying to hack/copy my master tool.

Until I see actual running proof of anything else, I'll be waiting for their remote solution.
There are a dozen tuners around Europe, Asia and the US with my master tool flashing the SC82 and other new CANbus ECUs like the 19+ CBR500R, 20+ AfricaTwin, and 20+ Forza 350. Additionally about a half a dozen people in the US have flashed their ECU with my self flash / remote flash tool and a few outside the US. I've posted dyno videos of HRP and LWS Tuning who use my software, I posted Fábio's top speed run in Portugal the other day. What more proof do you need?
 

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Do you know where on MCU's website they're offering this tune? Videos and numbers provided?
https://mcuinnovations.com/software/ecuworkbench_remote_flash/
https://mcuinnovations.com/software/ecuworkbench/tunes/?model=honda-sc82&sort=title

I don't have any dyno charts on there website yet but they have been posted on other threads. The stage 1 tunes I have available were done by HRP (for the SC Project exhaust) and LWS Tuning (for the Akra Race exhaust). LWS Tuning is based out of FL and he actually has a copy of my master tool and can do local in-house tuning as well for those in or around Florida.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
If I sound bitter it is because I am tired of the false claims. Holzhauer Racing Promotions hired me to develop the CANbus master tool for them back in December 2020. They were tuning the SC82 all January. I didn't sell anyone else a license to my master tool until February, and almost immediately, Brentuning made a video claiming to be the first which was just a flat out lie. They were the first to make a video of their tuning efforts. But by no means were they the first to tune an SC82.


I have no clue what you are saying here. Who said anything was easy?


I am the only one who has "released" anything. They are performing a service with my software.



LOL. "group of people" could they be any more vague. That group is me, who figured out and wrote software to do the flashing, and then his EU partner that creates his ECU definition. Neither Bren or his EU partner is a software developer or reverse engineer, so if they are actually working a "remote solution", which I highly doubt, then his EU partner and one of his cronies is actively trying to hack/copy my master tool.



There are a dozen tuners around Europe, Asia and the US with my master tool flashing the SC82 and other new CANbus ECUs like the 19+ CBR500R, 20+ AfricaTwin, and 20+ Forza 350. Additionally about a half a dozen people in the US have flashed their ECU with my self flash / remote flash tool and a few outside the US. I've posted dyno videos of HRP and LWS Tuning who use my software, I posted Fábio's top speed run in Portugal the other day. What more proof do you need?
I spoke with them today, they said they used your tool because you sold it as a “use it for anything“ tool but then refused to sell them more. They actually said in two weeks they won’t need your tool and their own will be developed by then.

They also said they’re probably just going to send the canlog and bin to DimSport so all tuners can have it and it isn’t so locked down. That’s good news for competition as far as I’m concerned. Also will be available on handheld so remote tunes for everyone. With the M1000RR coming out, they said they really wanted to focus on that.
 

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If I sound bitter it is because I am tired of the false claims. Holzhauer Racing Promotions hired me to develop the CANbus master tool for them back in December 2020. They were tuning the SC82 all January.
If I were to be honest, I wouldn't totally blame Brentuning for saying what they said. it's a short video, what else can they say other than we are developing? whoever the we is.

At the moment, the market is very very confusing. I can tell you that I was doing some research in to reading ECU data (your average can bus stuff like RPM, temp, throttle position, etc.) about a year ago and came across your page. I did poke around but don't recall having a eureka moment about figuring out what it was about. I'm not being offensive, just saying that I'm a newbie; and coming across various sites like woolich, MCU, brentuning, etc. it's very difficult to figure out who does what exactly and how they differentiate.

this tuning business sounds a bit like the PC business to me, at least what it was in the 1990's and 2000s.
There were a whole bunch of companies that made PCs, Gateway (remember?), HP, Dell, IBM, Mom/Pops stores (customizing, etc); then there were the OS vendors, and then the chip vendors. Each one was trying to figure out how to place themselves in the PC stack and in the market place. And as a consumer, it was difficult to know what to buy and what the differences where, other than price.

That's why many of the component vendors started running their own campaigns. and some have been super successful. Like you might you buy a PC today and not really care who put it together, as long it has the NVIDIA chip you want.

Perhaps a similar thing needs to happen in this market so various value adders can mature.
  • You have the SW people who make the underlying SW, and figure out what could be programmed, changed, etc. their value add is speed to market, features, ease of use, etc.
  • you have the people who then use that software to create maps, offer customization, etc
their value add is providing the map, creating "tune packages" and doing the flashing
- you have people who actually have a dyno/shop, and provide a close service to the customer for customizing, measuring, etc.
their value add is tuning, and also providing a dyno for people to use.

Obviously, there can be cooperation between each of these, to provide feedback to each other for making things better.

Maybe there needs to be an equivalent "Intel Inside" logo for the SW providers.

Again.. I have no idea how the market actually works but from a high level newbie POV, this is what I observed.



Need a marketing person? :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
If I were to be honest, I wouldn't totally blame Brentuning for saying what they said. it's a short video, what else can they say other than we are developing? whoever the we is.

At the moment, the market is very very confusing. I can tell you that I was doing some research in to reading ECU data (your average can bus stuff like RPM, temp, throttle position, etc.) about a year ago and came across your page. I did poke around but don't recall having a eureka moment about figuring out what it was about. I'm not being offensive, just saying that I'm a newbie; and coming across various sites like woolich, MCU, brentuning, etc. it's very difficult to figure out who does what exactly and how they differentiate.

this tuning business sounds a bit like the PC business to me, at least what it was in the 1990's and 2000s.
There were a whole bunch of companies that made PCs, Gateway (remember?), HP, Dell, IBM, Mom/Pops stores (customizing, etc); then there were the OS vendors, and then the chip vendors. Each one was trying to figure out how to place themselves in the PC stack and in the market place. And as a consumer, it was difficult to know what to buy and what the differences where, other than price.

That's why many of the component vendors started running their own campaigns. and some have been super successful. Like you might you buy a PC today and not really care who put it together, as long it has the NVIDIA chip you want.

Perhaps a similar thing needs to happen in this market so various value adders can mature.
  • You have the SW people who make the underlying SW, and figure out what could be programmed, changed, etc. their value add is speed to market, features, ease of use, etc.
  • you have the people who then use that software to create maps, offer customization, etc
their value add is providing the map, creating "tune packages" and doing the flashing
- you have people who actually have a dyno/shop, and provide a close service to the customer for customizing, measuring, etc.
their value add is tuning, and also providing a dyno for people to use.

Obviously, there can be cooperation between each of these, to provide feedback to each other for making things better.

Maybe there needs to be an equivalent "Intel Inside" logo for the SW providers.

Again.. I have no idea how the market actually works but from a high level newbie POV, this is what I observed.



Need a marketing person? :)
it’s all about data for me and most customers. Videos, verifiable independent data, in-house data. As much info as possible. You’ll see people like woolich that just provide tools have no data and most of the time they push a product out and wait for tuner feedback to fix it. Woolich is known for that.
 

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They also said they’re probably just going to send the canlog and bin to DimSport so all tuners can have it and it isn’t so locked down. That’s good news for competition as far as I’m concerned. Also will be available on handheld so remote tunes for everyone. With the M1000RR coming out, they said they really wanted to focus on that.
Hm.m.. honestly, something doesn't align right. So "they" developed a SW from scratch and created the data to go with it? Developing SW from scratch doesn't happen in a few months.

And then going to give it out so everyone can benefit? Doesn't this put "them" out of business?

I don't know, I'm just poking & asking.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Hm.m.. honestly, something doesn't align right. So "they" developed a SW from scratch and created the data to go with it? Developing SW from scratch doesn't happen in a few months.

And then going to give it out so everyone can benefit? Doesn't this put "them" out of business?

I don't know, I'm just poking & asking.
They said it took them almost two months to develop and a lot less work than the BMW Bosch stuff. With all the products they have to develop now the won’t have time for a remote solution and that they didn’t anticipate all the demand they would get for it. Sending to dimsport enables them a way to give it to customers but also a way for other tuners to use it. They said they weren’t worried about other tuners and that the product would speak for itself. I’m not gonna complain that more people get their hands on it and better the product. Monopolies aren’t very fun for the consumer.
 

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I spoke with them today, they said they used your tool because you sold it as a “use it for anything“ tool but then refused to sell them more.
That's half correct. All of January I took preorders on a one time sale for a 3-seat license to my master tool. Once everyone paid up I released it to everyone at once with all the bin files that I had at the time for all the CANbus ECUs that were out then. The master tool was indeed unlimited use, but it tied to a single computer (in this case 3). One of the people from the UK that bought the license shared a seat with Brentuning and thats how they are doing their in-house flashing/tuning... which I was fine with. About this time I/we (Bren) realized the 2021 US ECUs dont seem to behave correctly on the bench making mail-in flashes sorta impossible for the time being. This is when Bren messaged me about selling another license that he could install on a laptop to mail to customers so that they could flash their own bikes. Besides the fact that this was past the deadline to the one time sale, I felt this was an abuse of the license... so I said no.

They actually said in two weeks they won’t need your tool and their own will be developed by then.
The CANbus protocol is dead simple and super easy to implement since its all generic commands minus the seed/key algorithm. Took me a weekend to sniff the dealer tool and get my own code working. The first Honda CANbus ecu was the 2019' CBR500R, they have been out a while, I always assumed other tool vendors would make something at some point. Not to mention there are leaked KTM/Keihin RH850 manufacture docs floating around. What I mostly care about protecting are my ECU definitions, there is only one other person on earth that knows the PGMFI code better than me. It's always been my goal to get better Honda tuning software on the market and have tuners use my software instead of competing with them for mail-in flash market share. But as you can see, not once anywhere has Bren giving my business a plug, and thats how most of these tuners are. So the only way I can get noticed and grow is to offer flashing services as well because in the end, its just that peak hp number that most of you care about.
 

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Perhaps a similar thing needs to happen in this market so various value adders can mature.
  • You have the SW people who make the underlying SW, and figure out what could be programmed, changed, etc. their value add is speed to market, features, ease of use, etc.
  • you have the people who then use that software to create maps, offer customization, etc
their value add is providing the map, creating "tune packages" and doing the flashing
- you have people who actually have a dyno/shop, and provide a close service to the customer for customizing, measuring, etc.
their value add is tuning, and also providing a dyno for people to use.
This is/was my plan but people are impatient, reverse engineering ECUs is a full time job, so is developing tuning/flashing software... so is website/marketing/sales. I'm doing all of this myself. I am not a tuner, would love to be, but I have no dyno yet. All the "tunes" that I am offering with my flash tool have been done by my partners, but this self-flash/remote flash tool is just a temporary hold-over until I can get my full tuning suite out where people have access to the ECU definitions I create. The full suite will be out late spring.
 

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They said they weren’t worried about other tuners and that the product would speak for itself. I’m not gonna complain that more people get their hands on it and better the product. Monopolies aren’t very fun for the consumer.
I am not trying to create a monopoly, other companies making a master tool was inevitable. I can just as easily open up sales to my master tool once a competitor releases something, but most people will not find a master tool useful because all that does is flash the ECU, doesn't help you make adjustment. In the US bike market, most end customers (and tuners) need some sort of unified tuning suite like you would expect from Woolich. Its only the US tuners that also dabble in cars and all the EU tuners that are used to the master tool and tuning tools being separate.

Not only do I have to worry about Woolich/DynoJet/FT/HPTuners using their resources to wipe me off the face of the planet, I also have to deal with all the EU/Asian tuner/hackers reselling cracked/hacked master tools and cheap/shitty/buggy/incomplete ECU definitions to go with those master tools, and in a way I have to compete with the impatient tuners that will shop around to any vendor just to brag about being the first/the fastest/the best/the whatever. You make it seem like I am the douche bag for holding back on people but I in reality I am just trying to get my ducks in a row to put out a quality product and keep a roof over my head before the EPA or some other company ruins things for me.
 
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