Woolich racing bin files

12438 Views 115 Replies 12 Participants Last post by Blackrepsol, 3 mo ago

HP17

Discussion Starter · Jan 25, 2021

Just purchased the woolich tuning kit to derestrict my CBR among other things. One question (which I'm sure will be followed by others): Which map should I copy for best power/performance.

I noticed the Japanese ETV table is not exactly the same as Europe/Australia map. The Thailand map is even more screwed than the USA map!

Also, should I copy over just ETV, or Fuel and ignition tables also? Anything else?
Oh and finally why do some bin files have more available tables than others?

Oh and for fun here is an ETV table I made. I was going to try this but the Japan/Europe ETV map looks very similar so I will probably just use that... but I do want to experiment with custom mapping. Should be fun.

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Raptor2277

· #40 · Feb 18, 2021

HP17 said:
Today I successfully read and wrote to my ECU. It took some difficulty getting the USB K V3 device to connect but once that was sorted all went well.

The flash feels great, lots of power, BUT, I have one major issue: The wheelie control vs TC level setting DID NOT WORK. The first time I gave it gas in 1st the front end rose a bit but then BAM! The TC/WC light flashed and the bike brought the front end down QUICK. Much harsher than usual/pre flash. Later in the ride I tried 2nd gear thinking maybe the bike thought the tire slipped the first time and that's why the bike brought it down but NOPE, it did the same thing. And keep in mind these are smooth roll on power wheelies not clutch-ups

Screenshot attached of my settings. I had T set to 1 or 0 the whole ride. Thanks.

View attachment 261701

My backup plan is to just set WC1 to all zeros (Like WC0). That will have a close enough effect to what I want to do...

I have the same issue, I've contacted Wooich and they gave me some caned response and refused to help. I have also noticed that the cut-off are really harsh. I was able accelerate really hard in first and keep the front from going any higher than maybe a foot off the ground. Now, when I do that that (even though there is suppose to be 0 intervention, it cuts out harshly. Its also very random. Sometimes it will let me keep it going for like 1-2 second before it cuts, and sometimes it cuts out immediately.

I have a feeling the flash really messes with TC, not to mention they had that bug in the software that made the bike borderline dangerous. They said they fixed it, (and it looks like it is) but I think there are still some things fucky that we aren't aware of.

Let me know if your solution (setting WC1 to all 0) works.

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Raptor2277

· #41 · Feb 18, 2021

Also I've spend quite a bit of time making my own EVT table. I've used bilinear interpolation methods and python scripts to get something that is smooth on low throttle and still has 100% on full throttle. Let me know if you guys wanna try it out.

Raptor2277

· #45 · Feb 19, 2021

HP17 said:
Have you tried it out yet? How do you like it?

I'm in Singapore for work right now and won't be back stateside until March 11 so sadly I can't do any testing until then.

Ya I've tried, it I did like 30 iterations on it. Id go for a ride and make notes on where its good or bad, the go back and adjust and reflash.

Raptor2277

· #47 · Feb 20, 2021

I don't wanna share the whole bin file because I don't want people to mistakenly import everything. But here is the excel for the map I've been working on. It has 3 pages EB1, EB2, EB3. If follows the same principle for engine braking the as stock. EB1 is most engine braking and EB3 is the least. The maps are the same for all 6 gears.

Here is the excel, the bottom-most table is the map for each respective EB and is the same for al 6 gears.

evt.xlsx

drive.google.com

drive.google.com

Raptor2277

· #49 · Feb 20, 2021 (Edited)

HP17 said:
This is the percent difference of the Euro map vs Raptors map, gear 5. a "-10" (red) value means Raptors map
delivers 10% less throttle for the same throttle position and rpm vs the Euro map.
Raptor from this it looks like your map would hit softer almost everywhere except in the upper right corner of the table, a place where I avoid when riding.
View attachment 261884

How does it feel?

"Raptor from this it looks like your map would hit softer almost everywhere". That the whole point. I don't want it to hit hard, on low throttle application. I want it to be smooth and have a gradual increase in power as you roll on the throttle. Also this view makes it look worse than it is.

At low, throttle openings, the values are already really small. So that -100% might be the 4% vs 2%. I would compare value trim.

Also are you sure you copied the correct table from the excel? Its the bottom most in each page. This is what my compare looks like.

For EB1 these are supposed to be the values.

Also make sure you paste it while in the values tab other wise the pasted data will be treaded as trim % or value trim.

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Raptor2277

· #50 · Feb 20, 2021

HP17 said:
Raptor from this it looks like your map would hit softer almost everywhere except in the upper right corner of the table, a place where I avoid when riding.

This EVT map has no affect on engine power output is simply maps YOUR throttle input to ACTUAL throttle input (or valve opening). The reason the upper right is so much more in my map is because these bikes already have low power on low rpm. If for some reason I wack it at 4500RPM I want the bike give me power and not like 40% where the OEM is at. The engine power output drastically increases from lower rpms so that's why its still not 100% but it gets there by at 6000RPM.

The reason this section is almost unchanged is, well, because you can't do much here. She's giving it all she's got, on OEM and my map.

Imagine you're mid corner at 6000rpm, you just hit the apex, you start to roll on the throttle to 100% as you straighten your bike up.

From this heat map you an tell how my map will be different from OEM. At off throttle position, mine will have less engine braking. As you start rolling on the throttle mine will give less. What this means is that you have to twist MORE to get same power as OEM. This also means that you physically have more range of motion in the throttle for the for the 0-20% valve opening. This means smoother and less twitchy input at low throttle.

As long as 0 throttle is maps to 0 (or in this case near 0 because of engine braking) and 100% throttle maps to 100%, you're not gonna loose any power, you're simply changing how much throlle you twist to get the desired power in between.

This is called interpolation and its used in many places. Like computer graphics and animation. This is an example of interpolation methods used for animations in computer graphics.

As you can see all the graphs start at 0 and end up at 100. However the interpolation method, affects what the output (y-axis) looks like in between (x-axis).

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Raptor2277

· #53 · Feb 21, 2021 (Edited)

HP17 said:
And I get your point about if 0 is 0 and 100 is 100, you don't lose power, but in the real world that's not true, most people spend a lot of time at partial throttle when in the canyons and on track. During those times they will be making less power if the ETV map is super soft vs aggressive. It's why quick turn throttles were so popular for cable-actuates bikes. You have basically made a slow-turn throttle.

People get quick-turn throttles to reach full power will less wrist twist (45degress vs Oem 65 degrees). This is that that they don't have to twist or reposition the wrist so much. Yes, this also means that it takes less throttle degrees to reach (for example 50% valve opening). But that's not a pro, that's con. If you google "quick throttle vs stock throttle" you will get a lot of people listing the throttle is more twitchy as a side affect.

No, I have not basically made a slow-turn throttle because its still 65 degrees of range of motion. What I have done is made a throttle that uses the more range of motion for lower half of valve opening and less range of motion for the upper half. Here is a graph to show it.

Notice how a linear map takes 32.5 degrees to control the lower 50% of the valve, and a "easIn" map takes 41 degrees to. More range of motion means a smoother throttle. Further more take a look at the range of motion for the first 10% of power. 7.5 degrees vs 14. That's ALMOST DOUBLE. This means you have almost twice as much rage of motion to control the first 10% of your bikes power. This is especially useful mid corner and on exit.

"but in the real world that's not true, most people spend a lot of time at partial throttle when in the canyons and on track".
-This is exactly the reason I gave the map more range of motion in those partial throttle zones. You are completely missing the point here.

"During those times they will be making less power"
-No they wont be. If they want more power, you twist the throttle more, that's the whole point of a throttle to tell the bike how much power you want it give. And the translates the throttle degree into actual input for the bike.
-I think what you're trying to so say is "if a rider rides at 50% power, their throttle will have to be opened more on average"

Based on your logic here this is what we should be aiming for then.

Ill be the fastest guy carving canyons. With just a mere 6 degrees of throttle twist I'm already at 50% valve opening. IMAGE HOW FAST THE BIKE WILL BE IF TWIST ALL THE WAY TO 65 degrees.
I love having my bike deliver almost all of its power, at only partial throttle applications. It's almost as if there's a reason I'm PARTIALLY applying the throttle in the first place.

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Raptor2277

· #55 · Feb 21, 2021

HP17 said:
That's true the twist-grip range of motion has stayed constant so it's not a perfect analogy, but as you admit your map does require significantly more twist grip action to achieve the same throttle position (for the most part), like going to a slower turn throttle would do. I'm not saying that's a bad thing I'm just not convinced it's a good thing.

I have never heard anyone argue that they want to have to turn their throttle twice as far to get the same throttle opening. You tout that as a benefit but personally I have no issues with throttle modulation off bottom. I want my throttle more linear. If someone does have that issue though then they will probably like your tune.

I also fly model helicopters and airplanes, and in that hobby a lot of people use substantial amounts of expo (exponential) when setting their pitch and roll curves, to reduce sensitivity near mid-stick. For example I used to fly at a field with a bunch of old guys. One of the guys let me fly his tiny model F-22 that he was having trouble with. I flew it and hated it because he had the expo turned up so high that I had to move the stick really far to get it to do what I wanted. I turned the expo down and then it flew really nice. The old guy tried it with my setup and he hated it, was twitching all over the place.

So my point is that some people like a lot of expo, some like a little. I personally use very little to no expo because I like having a very responsive vehicle. No right or wrong answer though it's just preference.

That is why I keep asking for your subjective opinion, we can look at graphs all day long but all that matters is how it feels to ride, after 30 iterations, does it feel good? Have you tried the Euro map back to back?

About your last plot that is not what I am saying at all

I understand that is subjective. Just like a quick-throttle.
But then you go and say things like

HP17 said:
During those times they will be making less power

Which is just plain wrong.

HP17 said:
does it feel good?

Yes, I like it. That's why I'm sharing it and asking others to try it and see what they think.

Raptor2277

· #57 · Feb 21, 2021

HP17 said:
They will make less power if they open the throttle the same amount, again, not necessarily a bad thing.
I'll be sure to try it out when I get back to the States.

BTW here is Euro vs yours, for 9000 rpms, 5th gear. What's interesting is that the Euro map IS very close to linear for certain conditions. For example, ask for 25%, it gives you 25%, ask for 50%, it gives you 50%, etc.
View attachment 261904

Ya, its not that bad above 10-20%.

The 0 to 20% throttle I thought was too aggressive. That's why mine is lower. And you cant just bring it back up to being linear at like 20% cause it will look like this.

That would mean that would be a huge surge of power at about .3 (or where ever you decide to bring it up back to linear)
So instead bring it back up gradually and it converges at 100%.

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Raptor2277

· #67 · Feb 21, 2021

RC45 said:
The downside with forcing the rider to wind the throttle up to get the power down is that they will almost always dial in more wrist than they needed to and you get a "nothing, nothing nothingggg. noooooothing... BAM!!! here is the power you asked for" power delivery

What? That makes no sense. How did you come up with this conclusion?

Raptor2277

· #69 · Feb 21, 2021

???? said:
The engine is rated from Honda at 189bhp in stock EU ETV form. This is fact not speculation.
IOW, a 100% stock bike with EU spec ECU is 189bhp. The engine is still rated and will still produce that power.
Or are we to believe that Honda has misrepresented the bikes power output to the German TUV and the US EPA?

In the above example the US bike rated at 168bhp posted 156rwhp. An apparent drive train power loss to friction of 12hp - roughly 7%.
If that 1st is to be taken at face value then the 164rwhp measurement is demonstrably not correct, as there is a significant difference between the power made available by the ETV tables of a stock US ECU and even a stock EU ECU.
Enough that Honda themselves claim a 21hp difference between the the 2 bikes when using the 2 different ECUs.

What are you even talking about? The reason the US models have lower power is not because of how your roll in the the throttle or the curvature of the EVT. Its because the US map LITTERALLY has the valve go back to 73% at full throttle once you reach 10k RPM. And this will continue to rev limit.

Compare that to the EU EVT.

And this demonstrated perfectly in those dyno comparisons.

HP17 said:

Notice how the power in the graph is the same for both bikes until you reach 10500. At which point he US bike starts to make less power, because the EVT map has it go to 73%. This is where the 26 or so HP loss comes from. And this is mainly why people flash their ECU.
This is also true for newer gen ZX10r and (I think GSXRS and R1 but I don't feel like digging around for those.)

RC45 said:
I never said roll off the throttle mid run. I clearly stated "the way you roll on the throttle influences the power delivery".

Ya, that just sounds stupid, and I'm my experience, the bike doesn't do that.
It seems to me that you made this misguided conclusion because you didn't understand the things above.

You should also note that the bike doesn't give the save EVT for a specific grip angle. It also changes based on RPM. This is likely why you feel that

RC45 said:
I never said roll off the throttle mid run. I clearly stated "the way you roll on the throttle influences the power delivery".

Lets take 2 examples.
-at 4000 rpm no throttle and very quickly turn to 50%.
-at 4000rpm no throttle and slowly turn to 50%.

Case 1.

Or if we very slowly apply the throttle.

This is likely what you're experiencing.

So of course

RC45 said:
I clearly stated "the way you roll on the throttle influences the power delivery".

And that's because of how the EVT table is designed.
And then you go and say stupid shit like this.

RC45 said:
The throttle is how the power is made available to the bike, so the ETV tables are the power management interface - This map will make the bike effectively much slower than even a stock Euro bike on track.

Honda already paired the system with a very effective TC/WC system to allow the rider to access as much power as they want to get at (ETV tables permitting) and then if too much is on tap and the bike begins to waste energy rotating about the rear axle it gently puts the front wheel down by closing the throttle on you and you just keep holding the throttle open because once the wheel is settled, the bike puts throttle back where you have it.. or if the wheel begins to slip it reduces throttle just enough to mitigate slip then gives you back what you are asking for.

The downside with forcing the rider to wind the throttle up to get the power down is that they will almost always dial in more wrist than they needed to and you get a "nothing, nothing nothingggg. noooooothing... BAM!!! here is the power you asked for" power delivery. And with 180rwhp coming online like that, the chassis might be prone to abruptly spin up/hoist the front wheel and force the TC/WC to abruptly intervene rather than smoothly come online.

Come on man, you're supposed to be an expert, but now it just feels like you're trolling.

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Raptor2277

· #72 · Feb 21, 2021

???? said:
I have been friendly and cordial in my replies and actually have held back a lot of "ammunition" so as not to come across as a jerk - I was going to share exactly why you are misguided in the way you are approaching this and are simply going to make your bike slower and slower, but I think I'll just watch you mouth off instead

Ammunition? Lol. Is this some sort of competition to you?

If you're gonna make statements, such as

???? said:
But what I am telling you is that your map will result is a slower bike - period.

Back them up with data, charts or anything. Not using argument of authority.

???? said:
I have literally spent more time in this ECU since 2018 than most. There is nothing about the makeup of the tables that I don't know. I have posts dating back 4 years covering this in excruciating depth. In fact there are many more tables that Woolich does not even expose I am familiar with.

Argument of authority again. Show some data.

???? said:
100+ dyno runs with the SC77.

Argument of authority again. Show some data. You have 100+ dyno runs of data.

???? said:
What in the below statement is "stupid shit"?

???? said:
The downside with forcing the rider to wind the throttle up to get the power down is that they will almost always dial in more wrist than they needed to and you get a "nothing, nothing nothingggg. noooooothing... BAM!!! here is the power you asked for" power delivery. And with 180rwhp coming online like that, the chassis might be prone to abruptly spin up/hoist the front wheel and force the TC/WC to abruptly intervene rather than smoothly come online.

That part. Did you even read what you wrote?

???? said:
I have been friendly and cordial in my replies and actually have held back a lot of "ammunition" so as not to come across as a jerk - I was going to share exactly why you are misguided in the way you are approaching this and are simply going to make your bike slower and slower, but I think I'll just watch you mouth off instead

This statement really shows that you're just here to try flex and show people how much smarter you think you are than everyone else. Tell everyone they're wrong because of data no one else has access to, but not actually provide or explain that data.

Now I'm starting to see why people go off on you throughout the forums.

Raptor2277 said:
This statement really shows that you're just here to try flex and show people how much smarter you think you are than everyone else. Tell everyone they're wrong because of data no one else has access to, but not actually provide or explain that data.

???? said:
But what I am telling you is that your map will result is a slower bike - period.

Counter- argument.
I will not make the bike slower - period.

Is that how it works? I just make a statement and add "- period."?

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Raptor2277

· #76 · Feb 22, 2021

???? said:
You posted some throttle maps and stated they will make your bike faster.

Never stated it will make my bike faster. Maybe learn to read before unloading your "ammunition". You're a little trigger happy aren't you.

This is my original statement.

Raptor2277 said:
Also I've spend quite a bit of time making my own EVT table. I've used bilinear interpolation methods and python scripts to get something that is smooth on low throttle and still has 100% on full throttle. Let me know if you guys wanna try it out.

Read it again. And after that, read it once more.

Raptor2277

· #77 · Feb 22, 2021

???? said:
The reality is that when HRC try to soften and slow down the race bike, they use a map profile similar to what you have chosen to use.
When they need the bike to be faster and hit harder they use a map style closer to what HP17 suggested.

I think you're confusing the terms faster/aggressive and slower/(less aggressive).

When you say "soften and slow down the race bike", does that mean it looses power at full throttle? I assume not. What is assume is they make the power come online slower and more progressive. It doesn't mean the bike is literally slower at full throttle.

And since you mention that race teams "try to soften and slow down the race bike", have you asked yourself why? Why would a race team that is trying to go as fast a possible "slow down their bike" as you call it?

Could it be that actually riding the bike on a track/road while cornering, and going over bumps and humps, is a very different from just doing dyno pulls?
Could it be that they are choosing a softer/less aggressive map to help the rider maintain stability and consistency?
Could it be that having a bike that is less aggressive allows the rider to more precisely control the power mid corner and coming out of corner?
Could it be that having a less aggressive bike in the low throttle range doesn't actually sacrifice peak power? And and the bike will still go when on the straight?

You inadvertently showed why map actually makes sense with this statement.

???? said:
The reality is that when HRC try to soften and slow down the race bike, they use a map profile similar to what you have chosen to use.

A lot of people don't have the suspension, tires, geometry, or skill to take a 1000cc bike and map it aggressively and take advantage of that aggressive map. Ever wonder my most people recommend a 600cc as a track bike? Having a less aggressive map will benefit (it think) most people.

Which is why I shared my map.

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Raptor2277

· #81 · Feb 23, 2021 (Edited)

RC45 said:
Yes it often does. Full throttle is a range of throttle movement available from idle to red line. It is possible to have full throttler at 2,000rpm or 13,800rpm. And the amount of power on hand will depend on the throttle blade position not the throttle grip position. A relationship managed by the infinitely configurable ETV tables.

Ya show how is my map which as 100% blade at 100% throttle slower than the other map that has 100% blade at 100% throttle?
Hello? Do you know how to read a line graph?

You notice how their mild series caps at 80% blade? That would make the bike slower. And you see how their smooth series has their blade also go 100% right at the end so it doesn't full throttle power.

Honestly man, do you know how to read a line graph?

Raptor2277

· #84 · Feb 23, 2021

RC45 said:
Only power 8 & 9 are power capped.
At 90% and 80% respectively.

And all the other smooth and mild profiles are intended for lower gear slower speeds but whatever preset used they almost always have an aggressive full power map for gears 4/5/6 so the bike does not end up slower.

Not only can I read a graph I can also reply without attacking the other poster and being an aggressive tossoff.

edit I’d love to stay and chat but I’ve got some pointless YouTube surfing to do.

This isn't a dyno chart, its a EVT table. Just because the line is lower doesn't mean the bike is slower.
You're actually trolling at this point.

Raptor2277

· #86 · Feb 23, 2021

RC45 said:
ETV table.

And when the map capped, it literally means the throttle is capped at 90% or 80% and limits the throttle opening, capping power.
This is how, for example the Thai bikes are limited to about 135hp.

Why are you telling me this? I think everyone can quickly see that its capped by looking at the line graph.

You're the one claiming that my map which goes to 100% is somehow slower than another map that also goes to 100%.

You've also made claims that how you roll on the throttle at low RPM somehow affects power output while at 100% throttle and at 11k RPM.

RC45 said:
So when I post a polite reply it’s trolling yet you can be as rude as all getup and that’s not?

Also quit playing the victim card over and over. I'm not here cursing or being racist.

Raptor2277

· #88 · Feb 24, 2021

HP17 said:
I don't know all the incentives they have to skew a number, and I did not claim that they lie.
All I'm saying is that comparing wheel horsepower (especially when performed on the same dyno under similar conditions) figures is much more useful than comparing stat sheets.

Let's assume the Honda numbers are 100% correct as you claim, and again let's look at actual data of a stock bike vs a stock bike with your tune. Same dyno, similar conditions.
Stock it made 156.31 hp. That equals 7% drivetrain loss if we assume the 168 hp # to be correct, as you do.
In that case after yor tune, assuming the 189 hp # is correct, as you do, the bike should have made at least 175.77 hp.
But it didn't. It only made 164.39 hp. Your argument is that all 11+ hp are missing because the dyno operator did not roll on the throttle correctly at 3k rpms. 😂
And you supposedly have hundreds of dyno runs that provide evidence of said phenomena, but you have yet to share one dyno run
View attachment 261933

You should listen to him. He's a pro with hundreds of dyno runs and access to charts us idiots couldn't even comprehend.

Just take his advice, and make sure to WACK THAT THROTTLE at 3krpm so when you reach 10krpm the bike gives you all the power it has.

Same thing coming out of a corner into a long straight. WACK THAT THROTTLE mid corner so when you come out onto the straight, you get full power.

Reactions: 1

Raptor2277

· #91 · Feb 24, 2021 (Edited)

CBR-SP said:
I do have much experience in car/truck ECUs that are essentially identical in operation, including rate and position sensors for throttle mapping in cornering and braking, etc.

Ya, that's a car/truck with an automatic transmission. Rate sensors are useful the so the car can downshift if you floor it; among other things.

Imagine making assumptions about a motorcycle ECU based on how a car ECU works. Sounds like a brilliant idea.

Also google any scholarly paper ever. See how they do things there. You make a hypothesis, do an experiment, and expose the data/experiment. Then that paper is peer reviewed.
That's what I did here. I made a map, experimented with it, and shared it here for other to try.

Then here comes the dyno pro and makes blanket statements with no logic or data to back it. He keeps mentioning the dyno pulls, he keeps mentioning the secret maps, but never explains it or links or shares.

And then he wonders why people here don't take him seriously.

CBR-SP said:
who can read graphs and make assumptions(theory) based on the black and white in front of him. Sounds legit, right?

I did a little more than just read graphs. I made my own map and tested it, and modified it over many iterations. I also did make assumptions/hypothesis and tried them out in my map. Some were wrong, some were right. That's how the scientific process works.

CBR-SP said:
Sounds legit, right?

Indeed, welcome to the 21st century where we use the scientific method and don't just blindly listen to "experts."
Why don't you google how the corona virus vaccine was developed so fast. I'm sure if the researchers and doctors had an attitude like @RC45 we would all be in a better situation right now.

CBR-SP said:
LOL This debate is entertaining for sure, but there is nothing new here

Funny how you say there's nothing new here, the proceed to add nothing new to the debate.

CBR-SP said:
guy is a lazy fuck

Yes, I'm lazy for doing my own map, sharing, and then using logic, graphs and charts to explain my reasoning.

CBR-SP said:
wants the other hand guy to tell him everything he knows

Not true. I want him explain and prove his statement. He's the one who posted it, he CHOSE to join this conversation. Notice how when some other people made comments about the stuff I CHOSE to share I didn't call them lazy fucks and instead explained my reasoning.

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Raptor2277

· #93 · Feb 24, 2021

???? said:
Your friend HP17 pointed out your map, while logically and intelligently constructed, would slow things down, even compared to a base EU map.
I supported this opinion.
You countered that you wanted to slow things down - so what exactly is your concern here?
You got what you desired, a slow map.
It seems we are all in agreement then.

Define slow things down, because you have been defining it as literally less horsepower at full throttle.

I agreed that my map is less aggressive.

Compared to a stock EU map, my map is not gonna produce less horsepower at full throttle.
Compared to a stock EU map, my map is not gonna be universally slower, you can achieve the whole range of valve opening in my map, just at different throttle positions.

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