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Also I've spend quite a bit of time making my own EVT table. I've used bilinear interpolation methods and python scripts to get something that is smooth on low throttle and still has 100% on full throttle. Let me know if you guys wanna try it out.
 

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Also I've spend quite a bit of time making my own EVT table. I've used bilinear interpolation methods and python scripts to get something that is smooth on low throttle and still has 100% on full throttle. Let me know if you guys wanna try it out.
Sounds interesting, I would like to take a look if you can send me the bin file.

For my bin file, I just updated the EVT table in power mode 1. Everything else seems to work fine.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
I have the same issue, I've contacted Wooich and they gave me some caned response and refused to help. I have also noticed that the cut-off are really harsh. I was able accelerate really hard in first and keep the front from going any higher than maybe a foot off the ground. Now, when I do that that (even though there is suppose to be 0 intervention, it cuts out harshly. Its also very random. Sometimes it will let me keep it going for like 1-2 second before it cuts, and sometimes it cuts out immediately.

I have a feeling the flash really messes with TC, not to mention they had that bug in the software that made the bike borderline dangerous. They said they fixed it, (and it looks like it is) but I think there are still some things fucky that we aren't aware of.

Let me know if your solution (setting WC1 to all 0) works.
So I was able to fix the super harsh wheelie control intervention by copying the WC values from a different bin file. My map is on the mapshare and with those WC values the bikes wheelie control works the same as it did when stock. Lets you hold the front wheel for a bit, gently lets the front end down. You can see it in action below at:
1:11 1:55 3:00 Best example probably at 7:07 and there's more after that.

I also have a feeling the flash is not working correctly for all the parameters advertised. It is a letdown.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
Also I've spend quite a bit of time making my own EVT table. I've used bilinear interpolation methods and python scripts to get something that is smooth on low throttle and still has 100% on full throttle. Let me know if you guys wanna try it out.
Have you tried it out yet? How do you like it?

I'm in Singapore for work right now and won't be back stateside until March 11 so sadly I can't do any testing until then.
 

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Have you tried it out yet? How do you like it?

I'm in Singapore for work right now and won't be back stateside until March 11 so sadly I can't do any testing until then.
Ya I've tried, it I did like 30 iterations on it. Id go for a ride and make notes on where its good or bad, the go back and adjust and reflash.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Ya I've tried, it I did like 30 iterations on it. Id go for a ride and make notes on where its good or bad, the go back and adjust and reflash.
Can you post a screenshot of the 3D graph? Or if you are done iterating post it up on mapshares.
 

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I don't wanna share the whole bin file because I don't want people to mistakenly import everything. But here is the excel for the map I've been working on. It has 3 pages EB1, EB2, EB3. If follows the same principle for engine braking the as stock. EB1 is most engine braking and EB3 is the least. The maps are the same for all 6 gears.

Here is the excel, the bottom-most table is the map for each respective EB and is the same for al 6 gears.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
This is the percent difference of the Euro map vs Raptors map, gear 5. a "-10" (red) value means Raptors map
delivers 10% less throttle for the same throttle position and rpm vs the Euro map.
Raptor from this it looks like your map would hit softer almost everywhere except in the upper right corner of the table, a place where I avoid when riding.
261884


How does it feel?
 

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This is the percent difference of the Euro map vs Raptors map, gear 5. a "-10" (red) value means Raptors map
delivers 10% less throttle for the same throttle position and rpm vs the Euro map.
Raptor from this it looks like your map would hit softer almost everywhere except in the upper right corner of the table, a place where I avoid when riding.
View attachment 261884

How does it feel?
"Raptor from this it looks like your map would hit softer almost everywhere". That the whole point. I don't want it to hit hard, on low throttle application. I want it to be smooth and have a gradual increase in power as you roll on the throttle. Also this view makes it look worse than it is.

At low, throttle openings, the values are already really small. So that -100% might be the 4% vs 2%. I would compare value trim.

Also are you sure you copied the correct table from the excel? Its the bottom most in each page. This is what my compare looks like.
261889


For EB1 these are supposed to be the values.
261888


Also make sure you paste it while in the values tab other wise the pasted data will be treaded as trim % or value trim.
 

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Raptor from this it looks like your map would hit softer almost everywhere except in the upper right corner of the table, a place where I avoid when riding.
This EVT map has no affect on engine power output is simply maps YOUR throttle input to ACTUAL throttle input (or valve opening). The reason the upper right is so much more in my map is because these bikes already have low power on low rpm. If for some reason I wack it at 4500RPM I want the bike give me power and not like 40% where the OEM is at. The engine power output drastically increases from lower rpms so that's why its still not 100% but it gets there by at 6000RPM.
261890



The reason this section is almost unchanged is, well, because you can't do much here. She's giving it all she's got, on OEM and my map.
261891



Imagine you're mid corner at 6000rpm, you just hit the apex, you start to roll on the throttle to 100% as you straighten your bike up.
261892


From this heat map you an tell how my map will be different from OEM. At off throttle position, mine will have less engine braking. As you start rolling on the throttle mine will give less. What this means is that you have to twist MORE to get same power as OEM. This also means that you physically have more range of motion in the throttle for the for the 0-20% valve opening. This means smoother and less twitchy input at low throttle.

As long as 0 throttle is maps to 0 (or in this case near 0 because of engine braking) and 100% throttle maps to 100%, you're not gonna loose any power, you're simply changing how much throlle you twist to get the desired power in between.

This is called interpolation and its used in many places. Like computer graphics and animation. This is an example of interpolation methods used for animations in computer graphics.
261893


As you can see all the graphs start at 0 and end up at 100. However the interpolation method, affects what the output (y-axis) looks like in between (x-axis).
 

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Discussion Starter #51 (Edited)
This EVT map has no affect on engine power output is simply maps YOUR throttle input to ACTUAL throttle input (or valve opening). The reason the upper right is so much more in my map is because these bikes already have low power on low rpm. If for some reason I wack it at 4500RPM I want the bike give me power and not like 40% where the OEM is at. The engine power output drastically increases from lower rpms so that's why its still not 100% but it gets there by at 6000RPM.
View attachment 261890


The reason this section is almost unchanged is, well, because you can't do much here. She's giving it all she's got, on OEM and my map.
View attachment 261891


Imagine you're mid corner at 6000rpm, you just hit the apex, you start to roll on the throttle to 100% as you straighten your bike up.
View attachment 261892

From this heat map you an tell how my map will be different from OEM. At off throttle position, mine will have less engine braking. As you start rolling on the throttle mine will give less. What this means is that you have to twist MORE to get same power as OEM. This also means that you physically have more range of motion in the throttle for the for the 0-20% valve opening. This means smoother and less twitchy input at low throttle.

As long as 0 throttle is maps to 0 (or in this case near 0 because of engine braking) and 100% throttle maps to 100%, you're not gonna loose any power, you're simply changing how much throlle you twist to get the desired power in between.

This is called interpolation and its used in many places. Like computer graphics and animation. This is an example of interpolation methods used for animations in computer graphics.
View attachment 261893

As you can see all the graphs start at 0 and end up at 100. However the interpolation method, affects what the output (y-axis) looks like in between (x-axis).
I missed that part about only copying the bottom-most table. Whoops, I'll try that later today.
I understand how the table works. But you should not confuse percent throttle opening with percent power output. At low rpms the engine can only breathe so much air so for example at 4500 rpms you do not know that raising the ETV value actually results in more horsepower. You would have to put it on a dyno to verify. My other point was that you should never be flooring it at 4500 rpms anyway because that's bogging the motor. These things want to be above 7k rpms if you want to go fast.

And I get your point about if 0 is 0 and 100 is 100, you don't lose power, but in the real world that's not true, most people spend a lot of time at partial throttle when in the canyons and on track. During those times they will be making less power if the ETV map is super soft vs aggressive. It's why quick turn throttles were so popular for cable-actuates bikes. You have basically made a slow-turn throttle.

Also the stock map ramps up as you go through the gears so you get a similar feel/response no matter what gear you are in, because while first gear may need to be a bit soft to prevent jerkiness, you don't want 6th gear to have that same softness as first.

But the cool thing about ETV tuning is that there is an amount of personal preference involved. It sounds like you are happy with your map compared to OEM unrestricted maps?
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Also are you sure you copied the correct table from the excel? Its the bottom most in each page. This is what my compare looks like.
View attachment 261889
What you are looking at above is the difference between the stock USA nerfed ETV table and your custom ETV table. A better comparison is Euro unrestricted ETV vs your custom ETV table as can be seen below for gear 5:
261899
 

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And I get your point about if 0 is 0 and 100 is 100, you don't lose power, but in the real world that's not true, most people spend a lot of time at partial throttle when in the canyons and on track. During those times they will be making less power if the ETV map is super soft vs aggressive. It's why quick turn throttles were so popular for cable-actuates bikes. You have basically made a slow-turn throttle.
People get quick-turn throttles to reach full power will less wrist twist (45degress vs Oem 65 degrees). This is that that they don't have to twist or reposition the wrist so much. Yes, this also means that it takes less throttle degrees to reach (for example 50% valve opening). But that's not a pro, that's con. If you google "quick throttle vs stock throttle" you will get a lot of people listing the throttle is more twitchy as a side affect.

No, I have not basically made a slow-turn throttle because its still 65 degrees of range of motion. What I have done is made a throttle that uses the more range of motion for lower half of valve opening and less range of motion for the upper half. Here is a graph to show it.
261901


Notice how a linear map takes 32.5 degrees to control the lower 50% of the valve, and a "easIn" map takes 41 degrees to. More range of motion means a smoother throttle. Further more take a look at the range of motion for the first 10% of power. 7.5 degrees vs 14. That's ALMOST DOUBLE. This means you have almost twice as much rage of motion to control the first 10% of your bikes power. This is especially useful mid corner and on exit.

"but in the real world that's not true, most people spend a lot of time at partial throttle when in the canyons and on track".
-This is exactly the reason I gave the map more range of motion in those partial throttle zones. You are completely missing the point here.

"During those times they will be making less power"
-No they wont be. If they want more power, you twist the throttle more, that's the whole point of a throttle to tell the bike how much power you want it give. And the translates the throttle degree into actual input for the bike.
-I think what you're trying to so say is "if a rider rides at 50% power, their throttle will have to be opened more on average"

Based on your logic here this is what we should be aiming for then.
261902

261903


Ill be the fastest guy carving canyons. With just a mere 6 degrees of throttle twist I'm already at 50% valve opening. IMAGE HOW FAST THE BIKE WILL BE IF TWIST ALL THE WAY TO 65 degrees.
I love having my bike deliver almost all of its power, at only partial throttle applications. It's almost as if there's a reason I'm PARTIALLY applying the throttle in the first place.
 

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Discussion Starter #54 (Edited)
That's true the twist-grip range of motion has stayed constant so it's not a perfect analogy, but as you admit your map does require significantly more twist grip action to achieve the same throttle position (for the most part), like going to a slower turn throttle would do. I'm not saying that's a bad thing I'm just not convinced it's a good thing.

I also fly model helicopters and airplanes, and in that hobby a lot of people use substantial amounts of expo (exponential) when setting their pitch and roll curves to reduce sensitivity near mid-stick. For example I used to fly at a field with a bunch of old guys. One of the guys let me fly his tiny model F-22 that he was having trouble with. I flew it and hated it because he had the expo turned up so high that I had to move the stick really far to get it to do what I wanted. I turned the expo down and then it flew really nice. The old guy tried it with my setup and he hated it, was twitching all over the place.

So my point is that some people like a lot of expo, some like a little. I personally use very little to no expo because I like having a very responsive vehicle. No right or wrong answer though it's just preference.

That is why I keep asking for your subjective opinion, we can look at graphs all day long but all that matters is how it feels to ride, after 30 iterations, does it feel good? Have you tried the Euro map back to back?

About your last plot that is not what I am saying at all :LOL:
 

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That's true the twist-grip range of motion has stayed constant so it's not a perfect analogy, but as you admit your map does require significantly more twist grip action to achieve the same throttle position (for the most part), like going to a slower turn throttle would do. I'm not saying that's a bad thing I'm just not convinced it's a good thing.

I have never heard anyone argue that they want to have to turn their throttle twice as far to get the same throttle opening. You tout that as a benefit but personally I have no issues with throttle modulation off bottom. I want my throttle more linear. If someone does have that issue though then they will probably like your tune.

I also fly model helicopters and airplanes, and in that hobby a lot of people use substantial amounts of expo (exponential) when setting their pitch and roll curves, to reduce sensitivity near mid-stick. For example I used to fly at a field with a bunch of old guys. One of the guys let me fly his tiny model F-22 that he was having trouble with. I flew it and hated it because he had the expo turned up so high that I had to move the stick really far to get it to do what I wanted. I turned the expo down and then it flew really nice. The old guy tried it with my setup and he hated it, was twitching all over the place.

So my point is that some people like a lot of expo, some like a little. I personally use very little to no expo because I like having a very responsive vehicle. No right or wrong answer though it's just preference.

That is why I keep asking for your subjective opinion, we can look at graphs all day long but all that matters is how it feels to ride, after 30 iterations, does it feel good? Have you tried the Euro map back to back?

About your last plot that is not what I am saying at all :LOL:
I understand that is subjective. Just like a quick-throttle.
But then you go and say things like
During those times they will be making less power
Which is just plain wrong.
does it feel good?
Yes, I like it. That's why I'm sharing it and asking others to try it and see what they think.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
I understand that is subjective. Just like a quick-throttle.
But then you go and say things like

Which is just plain wrong.

Yes, I like it. That's why I'm sharing it and asking others to try it and see what they think.
They will make less power if they open the throttle the same amount, again, not necessarily a bad thing.
I'll be sure to try it out when I get back to the States.(y)

BTW here is Euro vs yours, for 9000 rpms, 5th gear. What's interesting is that the Euro map IS very close to linear for certain conditions. For example, ask for 25%, it gives you 25%, ask for 50%, it gives you 50%, etc.
261904
 

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They will make less power if they open the throttle the same amount, again, not necessarily a bad thing.
I'll be sure to try it out when I get back to the States.(y)

BTW here is Euro vs yours, for 9000 rpms, 5th gear. What's interesting is that the Euro map IS very close to linear for certain conditions. For example, ask for 25%, it gives you 25%, ask for 50%, it gives you 50%, etc.
View attachment 261904
Ya, its not that bad above 10-20%.
261905


The 0 to 20% throttle I thought was too aggressive. That's why mine is lower. And you cant just bring it back up to being linear at like 20% cause it will look like this.
261906


That would mean that would be a huge surge of power at about .3 (or where ever you decide to bring it up back to linear)
So instead bring it back up gradually and it converges at 100%.
 

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The throttle is how the power is made available to the bike, so the ETV tables are the power management interface - This map will make the bike effectively much slower than even a stock Euro bike on track.

Honda already paired the system with a very effective TC/WC system to allow the rider to access as much power as they want to get at (ETV tables permitting) and then if too much is on tap and the bike begins to waste energy rotating about the rear axle it gently puts the front wheel down by closing the throttle on you and you just keep holding the throttle open because once the wheel is settled, the bike puts throttle back where you have it.. or if the wheel begins to slip it reduces throttle just enough to mitigate slip then gives you back what you are asking for.

The downside with forcing the rider to wind the throttle up to get the power down is that they will almost always dial in more wrist than they needed to and you get a "nothing, nothing nothingggg. noooooothing... BAM!!! here is the power you asked for" power delivery. And with 180rwhp coming online like that, the chassis might be prone to abruptly spin up/hoist the front wheel and force the TC/WC to abruptly intervene rather than smoothly come online.

BTW: the throttle action, independent of the ETV tables is already non-linear; internally there is not a 1:1 relationship between the throttle grip angle and the throttle position sensor of the throttle blade, so while your logic and math is spot on, in this case the throttle action has been slowed down considerably.

As noted, see the Euro ETV table.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
The throttle is how the power is made available to the bike, so the ETV tables are the power management interface - This map will make the bike effectively much slower than even a stock Euro bike on track.

Honda already paired the system with a very effective TC/WC system to allow the rider to access as much power as they want to get at (ETV tables permitting) and then if too much is on tap and the bike begins to waste energy rotating about the rear axle it gently puts the front wheel down by closing the throttle on you and you just keep holding the throttle open because once the wheel is settled, the bike puts throttle back where you have it.. or if the wheel begins to slip it reduces throttle just enough to mitigate slip then gives you back what you are asking for.

The downside with forcing the rider to wind the throttle up to get the power down is that they will almost always dial in more wrist than they needed to and you get a "nothing, nothing nothingggg. noooooothing... BAM!!! here is the power you asked for" power delivery. And with 180rwhp coming online like that, the chassis might be prone to abruptly spin up/hoist the front wheel and force the TC/WC to abruptly intervene rather than smoothly come online.

BTW: the throttle action, independent of the ETV tables is already non-linear; internally there is not a 1:1 relationship between the throttle grip angle and the throttle position sensor of the throttle blade, so while your logic and math is spot on, in this case the throttle action has been slowed down considerably.

As noted, see the Euro ETV table.
You mean 165 rwhp :sneaky:. It's OK we know the CBR is down on power compared to the other 1000's. Step one is acceptance:LOL:
 

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You mean 165 rwhp :sneaky:. It's OK we know the CBR is down on power compared to the other 1000's. Step one is acceptance:LOL:
Rated 189bhp at the engine, which is not that much down on power compared to 17-19 contemporary 1000s (6hp to 11hp diff.), even stock 165rwhp would mean 13% drive train loss to friction - a rather high number for a motorcycle.

Restore the ETV tables to EU stock and remove the intake tube restrictions and you have restored the bikes to Honda advertised power levels.
Add a full exhaust and decent tune and these bikes are 180rwhp+ bikes.
 
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