[Raptor2277]

Yes it often does. Full throttle is a range of throttle movement available from idle to red line. It is possible to have full throttler at 2,000rpm or 13,800rpm. And the amount of power on hand will depend on the throttle blade position not the throttle grip position. A relationship managed by the infinitely configurable ETV tables.

Ya show how is my map which as 100% blade at 100% throttle slower than the other map that has 100% blade at 100% throttle?
Hello? Do you know how to read a line graph?

You notice how their mild series caps at 80% blade? That would make the bike slower. And you see how their smooth series has their blade also go 100% right at the end so it doesn't full throttle power.

Honestly man, do you know how to read a line graph?

 

[Bevo]

We have plenty of data regarding what these bikes actually put out.

Data from engine dynos?

 

[Saul.]

Ya show how is my map which as 100% blade at 100% throttle slower than the other map that has 100% blade at 100% throttle?
Hello? Do you know how to read a line graph?

You notice how their mild series caps at 80% blade? That would make the bike slower. And you see how their smooth series has their blade also go 100% right at the end so it doesn't full throttle power.

Honestly man, do you know how to read a line graph?

Only power 8 & 9 are power capped.
At 90% and 80% respectively.

And all the other smooth and mild profiles are intended for lower gear slower speeds but whatever preset used they almost always have an aggressive full power map for gears 4/5/6 so the bike does not end up slower.

Not only can I read a graph I can also reply without attacking the other poster and being an aggressive tossoff.

 

[Raptor2277]

Only power 8 & 9 are power capped.
At 90% and 80% respectively.

And all the other smooth and mild profiles are intended for lower gear slower speeds but whatever preset used they almost always have an aggressive full power map for gears 4/5/6 so the bike does not end up slower.

Not only can I read a graph I can also reply without attacking the other poster and being an aggressive tossoff.

edit I’d love to stay and chat but I’ve got some pointless YouTube surfing to do.

This isn't a dyno chart, its a EVT table. Just because the line is lower doesn't mean the bike is slower.
You're actually trolling at this point.

 

[Saul.]

This isn't a dyno chart, its a EVT table. Just because the line is lower doesn't mean the bike is slower.
You're actually trolling at this point.

ETV table.

And when the map capped, it literally means the throttle is capped at 90% or 80% and limits the throttle opening, capping power.
This is how, for example the Thai bikes are limited to about 135hp.

So when I post a polite reply it’s trolling yet you can be as rude as all getup and that’s not?

 

[Raptor2277]

ETV table.

And when the map capped, it literally means the throttle is capped at 90% or 80% and limits the throttle opening, capping power.
This is how, for example the Thai bikes are limited to about 135hp.

Why are you telling me this? I think everyone can quickly see that its capped by looking at the line graph.

You're the one claiming that my map which goes to 100% is somehow slower than another map that also goes to 100%.

You've also made claims that how you roll on the throttle at low RPM somehow affects power output while at 100% throttle and at 11k RPM.

So when I post a polite reply it’s trolling yet you can be as rude as all getup and that’s not?

Also quit playing the victim card over and over. I'm not here cursing or being racist.

 

[HP17]

What incentive does Honda have to lie to the Feds?
These power ratings (168bhp and 189bhp) are as Honda provides to the EPA and the EU equivalents.

I don't know all the incentives they have to skew a number, and I did not claim that they lie.
All I'm saying is that comparing wheel horsepower (especially when performed on the same dyno under similar conditions) figures is much more useful than comparing stat sheets.

Let's assume the Honda numbers are 100% correct as you claim, and again let's look at actual data of a stock bike vs a stock bike with your tune. Same dyno, similar conditions.
Stock it made 156.31 hp. That equals 7% drivetrain loss if we assume the 168 hp # to be correct, as you do.
In that case after yor tune, assuming the 189 hp # is correct, as you do, the bike should have made at least 175.77 hp.
But it didn't. It only made 164.39 hp. Your argument is that all 11+ hp are missing because the dyno operator did not roll on the throttle correctly at 3k rpms. 😂
And you supposedly have hundreds of dyno runs that provide evidence of said phenomena, but you have yet to share one dyno run

 

[Raptor2277]

I don't know all the incentives they have to skew a number, and I did not claim that they lie.
All I'm saying is that comparing wheel horsepower (especially when performed on the same dyno under similar conditions) figures is much more useful than comparing stat sheets.

Let's assume the Honda numbers are 100% correct as you claim, and again let's look at actual data of a stock bike vs a stock bike with your tune. Same dyno, similar conditions.
Stock it made 156.31 hp. That equals 7% drivetrain loss if we assume the 168 hp # to be correct, as you do.
In that case after yor tune, assuming the 189 hp # is correct, as you do, the bike should have made at least 175.77 hp.
But it didn't. It only made 164.39 hp. Your argument is that all 11+ hp are missing because the dyno operator did not roll on the throttle correctly at 3k rpms. 😂
And you supposedly have hundreds of dyno runs that provide evidence of said phenomena, but you have yet to share one dyno run
View attachment 261933

You should listen to him. He's a pro with hundreds of dyno runs and access to charts us idiots couldn't even comprehend.

Just take his advice, and make sure to WACK THAT THROTTLE at 3krpm so when you reach 10krpm the bike gives you all the power it has.

Same thing coming out of a corner into a long straight. WACK THAT THROTTLE mid corner so when you come out onto the straight, you get full power.

 

[HP17]

You should listen to him. He's a pro with hundreds of dyno runs and access to charts us idiots couldn't even comprehend.

Just take his advice, and make sure to WACK THAT THROTTLE at 3krpm so when you reach 10krpm the bike gives you all the power it has.

Same thing coming out of a corner into a long straight. WACK THAT THROTTLE mid corner so when you come out onto the straight, you get full power.

At the lean angles RC45 runs, that strategy probably works for him
(Pic is from How to remove Chicken Strips (and fries) without the track? post #12)

 

[Saul.]

I don't know all the incentives they have to skew a number, and I did not claim that they lie.
All I'm saying is that comparing wheel horsepower (especially when performed on the same dyno under similar conditions) figures is much more useful than comparing stat sheets.

Let's assume the Honda numbers are 100% correct as you claim, and again let's look at actual data of a stock bike vs a stock bike with your tune. Same dyno, similar conditions.
Stock it made 156.31 hp. That equals 7% drivetrain loss if we assume the 168 hp # to be correct, as you do.
In that case after yor tune, assuming the 189 hp # is correct, as you do, the bike should have made at least 175.77 hp.
But it didn't. It only made 164.39 hp. Your argument is that all 11+ hp are missing because the dyno operator did not roll on the throttle correctly at 3k rpms. 😂
And you supposedly have hundreds of dyno runs that provide evidence of said phenomena, but you have yet to share one dyno run

Yes this is the most likely scenario.
Of course, tire pressure, strap tension, wheel postilion on the drum, spark pickup signal and weather station calibration all have in impact as well - but we can assume the operator is very consistent in the dyno prep.

You chose the word "correctly". I stated "how you roll the throttle on impacts the number measured". Very different implication.

At the lean angles RC45 runs, that strategy probably works for him
(Pic is from How to remove Chicken Strips (and fries) without the track? post #12)

Lots of vinegar in your post - you seem bitter about something?
You think posting those pictures is an attack?
Here's a clue - if I really cared about what you or anyone else thought I would not have posted them in the first place.

You should listen to him. He's a pro with hundreds of dyno runs and access to charts us idiots couldn't even comprehend.

Just take his advice, and make sure to WACK THAT THROTTLE at 3krpm so when you reach 10krpm the bike gives you all the power it has.

Same thing coming out of a corner into a long straight. WACK THAT THROTTLE mid corner so when you come out onto the straight, you get full power.

Why are you telling me this? I think everyone can quickly see that its capped by looking at the line graph.

You're the one claiming that my map which goes to 100% is somehow slower than another map that also goes to 100%.

You've also made claims that how you roll on the throttle at low RPM somehow affects power output while at 100% throttle and at 11k RPM.

In your own words "Maybe learn to read. Read it again. And after that, read it once more."
If a person is after a bragging rights number from the dyno run, then how you roll the throttle on impacts the number measured.
Here is a clue - I am sure you are aware it is possible to bounce a bike off the rev limiter without using full throttle. This is a clue as to how it would be possible to put a bike on the dyno and make a pull ostensibly using "full throttle" but you are not and still have a run that goes to 13,800rpm.
Hell, even the stock US bike with a 73% capped throttle can pull redline - so...... it is possible to influence the number measured on the dyno by how you roll on the throttle.

Also quit playing the victim card over and over. I'm not here cursing or being racist.

In your own words again "Maybe learn to read. Read it again. And after that, read it once more." - would you take on the mealy mouthed attitude and tone in person with people, or is it just reserved for online interactions?

 

[Raptor2277]

I do have much experience in car/truck ECUs that are essentially identical in operation, including rate and position sensors for throttle mapping in cornering and braking, etc.

Ya, that's a car/truck with an automatic transmission. Rate sensors are useful the so the car can downshift if you floor it; among other things.

Imagine making assumptions about a motorcycle ECU based on how a car ECU works. Sounds like a brilliant idea.

Also google any scholarly paper ever. See how they do things there. You make a hypothesis, do an experiment, and expose the data/experiment. Then that paper is peer reviewed.
That's what I did here. I made a map, experimented with it, and shared it here for other to try.

Then here comes the dyno pro and makes blanket statements with no logic or data to back it. He keeps mentioning the dyno pulls, he keeps mentioning the secret maps, but never explains it or links or shares.

And then he wonders why people here don't take him seriously.

who can read graphs and make assumptions(theory) based on the black and white in front of him. Sounds legit, right?

I did a little more than just read graphs. I made my own map and tested it, and modified it over many iterations. I also did make assumptions/hypothesis and tried them out in my map. Some were wrong, some were right. That's how the scientific process works.

Sounds legit, right?

Indeed, welcome to the 21st century where we use the scientific method and don't just blindly listen to "experts."
Why don't you google how the corona virus vaccine was developed so fast. I'm sure if the researchers and doctors had an attitude like @RC45 we would all be in a better situation right now.

LOL This debate is entertaining for sure, but there is nothing new here

Funny how you say there's nothing new here, the proceed to add nothing new to the debate.

guy is a lazy fuck

Yes, I'm lazy for doing my own map, sharing, and then using logic, graphs and charts to explain my reasoning.

wants the other hand guy to tell him everything he knows

Not true. I want him explain and prove his statement. He's the one who posted it, he CHOSE to join this conversation. Notice how when some other people made comments about the stuff I CHOSE to share I didn't call them lazy fucks and instead explained my reasoning.

 

[Saul.]

Not true. I want him explain and prove his statement. He's the one who posted it, he CHOSE to join this conversation. Notice how when some other people made comments about the stuff I CHOSE to share I didn't call them lazy fucks and instead explained my reasoning.

Your friend HP17 pointed out your map, while logically and intelligently constructed, would slow things down, even compared to a base EU map.
I supported this opinion.
You countered that you wanted to slow things down - so what exactly is your concern here?
You got what you desired, a slow map.
It seems we are all in agreement then.

 

[Raptor2277]

Your friend HP17 pointed out your map, while logically and intelligently constructed, would slow things down, even compared to a base EU map.
I supported this opinion.
You countered that you wanted to slow things down - so what exactly is your concern here?
You got what you desired, a slow map.
It seems we are all in agreement then.

Define slow things down, because you have been defining it as literally less horsepower at full throttle.

I agreed that my map is less aggressive.

Compared to a stock EU map, my map is not gonna produce less horsepower at full throttle.
Compared to a stock EU map, my map is not gonna be universally slower, you can achieve the whole range of valve opening in my map, just at different throttle positions.

 

[Raptor2277]

Your friend HP17 pointed out your map, while logically and intelligently constructed, would slow things down, even compared to a base EU map.
I supported this opinion.
You countered that you wanted to slow things down - so what exactly is your concern here?
You got what you desired, a slow map.
It seems we are all in agreement then.

Honestly, and this isn't a personal attack. I think you're interpreting the EVT graph wrong. You're interpreting it like a dyno map, which it isn't. Lets take this as an example.

If this was a dyno map.
There is no question, and that the blue one is slow in every way, shape, and form.
But it isn't its a EVT map. Every point on the red (the map which you perceive to be faster), can be achieved by the blue line, at different throttle position.

You want 10% valve? Sure no problem, both maps offer it.
You want 50% valve? Sure, both maps offer it.
You want 100%? Sure, both maps offer it.

Its not slower. This isn't a dyno graph.
Actually, thinking about it, everything you said, would make perfect sense if you interpreted the EVT as a dyno chart.

"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

 

[HP17]

Lots of vinegar in your post - you seem bitter about something?
You think posting those pictures is an attack?
Here's a clue - if I really cared about what you or anyone else thought I would not have posted them in the first place.

No vinegar. Everyone should ride their own race. The point though is that you personally do not ride this bike in the manner one would need to ride it in order to benefit from Raptors map. He softened the throttle so that when at a deep lean angle the user is less likely to break traction when rolling on the throttle.

It makes sense that this map is not for you. Honestly I don't think it's for me either but it's not as black and white as you are making it out to be.

 

[Saul.]

Honestly, and this isn't a personal attack. I think you're interpreting the EVT graph wrong. You're interpreting it like a dyno map, which it isn't. Lets take this as an example.
[snip]

If this was a dyno map.
There is no question, and that the blue one is slow in every way, shape, and form.
But it isn't its a EVT map. Every point on the red (the map which you perceive to be faster), can be achieved by the blue line, at different throttle position.

You want 10% valve? Sure no problem, both maps offer it.
You want 50% valve? Sure, both maps offer it.
You want 100%? Sure, both maps offer it.

Its not slower. This isn't a dyno graph.
Actually, thinking about it, everything you said, would make perfect sense if you interpreted the EVT as a dyno chart.

"When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

ETV table.
I am not interpreting it as a dyno 'map' - but if you think the ETV table does not manage power output you have fundamentally misunderstood how Honda manages the bike.
ETV table.
And in the practical application that ETV table will result in a slower bike.
But you are of course free to have your own opinion.

So one guy is allowed to question the other guy but the other guy is not allowed to question the one guy? Even when the one guys statements make no sense, are sometimes 100% false, and he has no evidence to back them up?

You talking to and about me here?
You saying I making 100% false statements?
If you are speaking about me here, then with your attitude towards me why would provide you anything?
You want the evidence so bad go get it yourself.

RC45 has been there and done that with the SC77 platform, but, that doesn't mean one should be a lazy fuck and throw their own common sense and good judgement out the window, and take everything RC45 says as gospel.

Why would you take anything anyone said as gospel? Well besides the Apostles of course.
Please do use your own judgement, common sense and deductive power.

In conclusion, wtf are you people asking for input if you dismiss all opposing opinions offhand? Good luck in your 2 tuning en-devours...

 

[Raptor2277]

In conclusion, why-tf are you folks asking for input if you dismiss all opposing opinions offhand? Good luck in your 2 tuning en-devours...

We're not dismissing opposing opinions. The fact that we're replying means we are listening that what you said. But what you said makes no sense. So we are trying to make sense of it. Not taking everything you said as fact and asking you to elaborate is not dismissive. Its actually the opposite of that.
Learn the difference.

I am not interpreting it as a dyno 'map' - but if you think the ETV table does not manage power output you have fundamentally misunderstood how Honda manages the bike.
ETV table.
And in the practical application that ETV table will result in a slower bike.

"but if you think the ETV table does not manage power output"
Don't put words in my mouth, I never said that. Also how do you even come up with this shit. My whole reason for making this map is to manage power output.
Da fuck are you even talking about man.

 

[HP17]

You talking to and about me here?
You saying I am making 100% false statements or someone else?
If you are speaking about me here, then with your attitude towards my false statements, whats my incentive to provide you anything?
You want the evidence so bad go get it yourself yeah


Why would you take anything anyone said as gospel? Well besides the Apostles of course.
Please do use your own judgement, common sense and deductive power.

In conclusion, why-tf are you folks asking for input if you dismiss all opposing opinions offhand? Good luck in your 2 tuning en-devours...

Yes I am talking about you. I thought I made that clear.
I don't have an attitude. The burden of proof falls on the person claiming the (nonsensical) theory. It's very obvious you have no evidence . And no I'm not going to search for something that does not exist.

No one asked for your input regarding Raptors map. And ironically it is YOU that is dismissing opposing opinions off-hand. I've seen you do it many times before so it does not surprise me.

 

[HP17]

The only people who don't understand what RC45 is saying and think some things he says are false are the specific people who don't have a clue to reality.

LOL so anyone who thinks RC45 has ever said something false, ever, has no clue on reality!? You really do think he is God.

If you think there is one person in this world who has never said anything false, then you sir have no clue on reality.

 

[Raptor2277]

Probably hijacking a bit but it would be interesting to see how many people are happy with what ???? has done for them, software wise and the user experience.

Irrelevant statement.
No one here has questioned or denied that ???? has helped other people or been right in the past.

We did however question some of the statements he has made here on this forum.
Just because you have been right or have done good deeds in that past does not make you an unquestionable figure. That is a logical fallacy called "Argument of Authority."

Hitler took an economically devastated country and turned it into a world super power. Then he did the most inhumane and unspeakable things in possibly all of human history. And no one saw it coming.

And before you say something stupid, no I'm not comparing ???? to Hitler.

The above statement was simply to show that no one person is beneath being questioned no matter how great their previous deeds.