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Discussion Starter #81
Why wouldn't you unless you've done testing on an engine dyno?
Because manufacturer stated numbers are sometimes grossly inaccurate, either under or over-rating an engine. We have plenty of data regarding what these bikes actually put out. That is what I am concerned with, not what Honda claims.
 

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Never stated it will make my bike faster. Maybe learn to read before unloading your "ammunition". You're a little trigger happy aren't you.
This is my original statement.
Read it again. And after that, read it once more.
I didn't unload anything. Still not sure why the aggressive responses?
You're doing a lot of projecting in this thread. And a lot of attacking.

I think you're confusing the terms faster/aggressive and slower/(less aggressive).
I am not confusing anything. I have a very good handle on setting up this bike.

When you say "soften and slow down the race bike", does that mean it looses power at full throttle? I assume not. What is assume is they make the power come online slower and more progressive. It doesn't mean the bike is literally slower at full throttle.
Yes it often does. Full throttle is a range of throttle movement available from idle to red line. It is possible to have full throttler at 2,000rpm or 13,800rpm. And the amount of power on hand will depend on the throttle blade position not the throttle grip position. A relationship managed by the infinitely configurable ETV tables.

And since you mention that race teams "try to soften and slow down the race bike", have you asked yourself why? Why would a race team that is trying to go as fast a possible "slow down their bike" as you call it?
For a specific task at hand. Under normal circumstances Map 1 is dialed up. The most aggressive one.

Could it be that actually riding the bike on a track/road while cornering, and going over bumps and humps, is a very different from just doing dyno pulls?
Could it be that they are choosing a softer/less aggressive map to help the rider maintain stability and consistency?
Could it be that having a bike that is less aggressive allows the rider to more precisely control the power mid corner and coming out of corner?
Could it be that having a less aggressive bike in the low throttle range doesn't actually sacrifice peak power? And and the bike will still go when on the straight?
Actually this is why even the HRC bike still allows preset Mode1/2/3 and User1/2 selection so that an appropriate preset setup can be selected when needed.
But you will still find P1 being the aggressive option to allow for an overall faster bike when conditions permit - in other conditions the rider can pick a milder preset.

You inadvertently showed why map actually makes sense with this statement.
Only if you need a softer map, for the rest of the time there will always be a super aggressive map on hand available to be selected.

A lot of people don't have the suspension, tires, geometry, or skill to take a 1000cc bike and map it aggressively and take advantage of that aggressive map. Ever wonder my most people recommend a 600cc as a track bike? Having a less aggressive map will benefit (it think) most people.
The new 600 Honda also comes with the same Multi Mode selectable map setup we have in the SC77 (and SC82)
This allows for matching the map to the condition.

Which is why I shared my map.
You designed a great mid range, softer map.
Nothing wrong with what you penciled up, but in the dry, the EU P1 will end up faster.

Here is an extract from the HRC SC77 setup manual illustrating this.

 

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Because manufacturer stated numbers are sometimes grossly inaccurate, either under or over-rating an engine. We have plenty of data regarding what these bikes actually put out. That is what I am concerned with, not what Honda claims.
What incentive does Honda have to lie to the Feds?
These power ratings (168bhp and 189bhp) are as Honda provides to the EPA and the EU equivalents.
 

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Yes it often does. Full throttle is a range of throttle movement available from idle to red line. It is possible to have full throttler at 2,000rpm or 13,800rpm. And the amount of power on hand will depend on the throttle blade position not the throttle grip position. A relationship managed by the infinitely configurable ETV tables.
Ya show how is my map which as 100% blade at 100% throttle slower than the other map that has 100% blade at 100% throttle?
Hello? Do you know how to read a line graph?

You notice how their mild series caps at 80% blade? That would make the bike slower. And you see how their smooth series has their blade also go 100% right at the end so it doesn't full throttle power.

Honestly man, do you know how to read a line graph?
 

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Ya show how is my map which as 100% blade at 100% throttle slower than the other map that has 100% blade at 100% throttle?
Hello? Do you know how to read a line graph?

You notice how their mild series caps at 80% blade? That would make the bike slower. And you see how their smooth series has their blade also go 100% right at the end so it doesn't full throttle power.

Honestly man, do you know how to read a line graph?
Only power 8 & 9 are power capped.
At 90% and 80% respectively.

And all the other smooth and mild profiles are intended for lower gear slower speeds but whatever preset used they almost always have an aggressive full power map for gears 4/5/6 so the bike does not end up slower.

Not only can I read a graph I can also reply without attacking the other poster and being an aggressive tossoff.

edit I’d love to stay and chat but I’ve got some pointless YouTube surfing to do.
 

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Only power 8 & 9 are power capped.
At 90% and 80% respectively.

And all the other smooth and mild profiles are intended for lower gear slower speeds but whatever preset used they almost always have an aggressive full power map for gears 4/5/6 so the bike does not end up slower.

Not only can I read a graph I can also reply without attacking the other poster and being an aggressive tossoff.

edit I’d love to stay and chat but I’ve got some pointless YouTube surfing to do.
This isn't a dyno chart, its a EVT table. Just because the line is lower doesn't mean the bike is slower.
You're actually trolling at this point.
 

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This isn't a dyno chart, its a EVT table. Just because the line is lower doesn't mean the bike is slower.
You're actually trolling at this point.
ETV table.

And when the map capped, it literally means the throttle is capped at 90% or 80% and limits the throttle opening, capping power.
This is how, for example the Thai bikes are limited to about 135hp.

So when I post a polite reply it’s trolling yet you can be as rude as all getup and that’s not?
 

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ETV table.

And when the map capped, it literally means the throttle is capped at 90% or 80% and limits the throttle opening, capping power.
This is how, for example the Thai bikes are limited to about 135hp.
Why are you telling me this? I think everyone can quickly see that its capped by looking at the line graph.

You're the one claiming that my map which goes to 100% is somehow slower than another map that also goes to 100%.

You've also made claims that how you roll on the throttle at low RPM somehow affects power output while at 100% throttle and at 11k RPM.

So when I post a polite reply it’s trolling yet you can be as rude as all getup and that’s not?
Also quit playing the victim card over and over. I'm not here cursing or being racist.
 

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Discussion Starter #90
What incentive does Honda have to lie to the Feds?
These power ratings (168bhp and 189bhp) are as Honda provides to the EPA and the EU equivalents.
I don't know all the incentives they have to skew a number, and I did not claim that they lie.
All I'm saying is that comparing wheel horsepower (especially when performed on the same dyno under similar conditions) figures is much more useful than comparing stat sheets.

Let's assume the Honda numbers are 100% correct as you claim, and again let's look at actual data of a stock bike vs a stock bike with your tune. Same dyno, similar conditions.
Stock it made 156.31 hp. That equals 7% drivetrain loss if we assume the 168 hp # to be correct, as you do.
In that case after yor tune, assuming the 189 hp # is correct, as you do, the bike should have made at least 175.77 hp.
But it didn't. It only made 164.39 hp. Your argument is that all 11+ hp are missing because the dyno operator did not roll on the throttle correctly at 3k rpms. :unsure: 😂
And you supposedly have hundreds of dyno runs that provide evidence of said phenomena, but you have yet to share one dyno run:unsure:
261933
 

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I don't know all the incentives they have to skew a number, and I did not claim that they lie.
All I'm saying is that comparing wheel horsepower (especially when performed on the same dyno under similar conditions) figures is much more useful than comparing stat sheets.

Let's assume the Honda numbers are 100% correct as you claim, and again let's look at actual data of a stock bike vs a stock bike with your tune. Same dyno, similar conditions.
Stock it made 156.31 hp. That equals 7% drivetrain loss if we assume the 168 hp # to be correct, as you do.
In that case after yor tune, assuming the 189 hp # is correct, as you do, the bike should have made at least 175.77 hp.
But it didn't. It only made 164.39 hp. Your argument is that all 11+ hp are missing because the dyno operator did not roll on the throttle correctly at 3k rpms. :unsure: 😂
And you supposedly have hundreds of dyno runs that provide evidence of said phenomena, but you have yet to share one dyno run:unsure:
View attachment 261933
You should listen to him. He's a pro with hundreds of dyno runs and access to charts us idiots couldn't even comprehend.

Just take his advice, and make sure to WACK THAT THROTTLE at 3krpm so when you reach 10krpm the bike gives you all the power it has.

Same thing coming out of a corner into a long straight. WACK THAT THROTTLE mid corner so when you come out onto the straight, you get full power.
 

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Discussion Starter #92
You should listen to him. He's a pro with hundreds of dyno runs and access to charts us idiots couldn't even comprehend.

Just take his advice, and make sure to WACK THAT THROTTLE at 3krpm so when you reach 10krpm the bike gives you all the power it has.

Same thing coming out of a corner into a long straight. WACK THAT THROTTLE mid corner so when you come out onto the straight, you get full power.
At the lean angles RC45 runs, that strategy probably works for him :sneaky:
(Pic is from How to remove Chicken Strips (and fries) without the track? post #12)
261946
 

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I don't know all the incentives they have to skew a number, and I did not claim that they lie.
All I'm saying is that comparing wheel horsepower (especially when performed on the same dyno under similar conditions) figures is much more useful than comparing stat sheets.

Let's assume the Honda numbers are 100% correct as you claim, and again let's look at actual data of a stock bike vs a stock bike with your tune. Same dyno, similar conditions.
Stock it made 156.31 hp. That equals 7% drivetrain loss if we assume the 168 hp # to be correct, as you do.
In that case after yor tune, assuming the 189 hp # is correct, as you do, the bike should have made at least 175.77 hp.
But it didn't. It only made 164.39 hp. Your argument is that all 11+ hp are missing because the dyno operator did not roll on the throttle correctly at 3k rpms. :unsure: 😂
And you supposedly have hundreds of dyno runs that provide evidence of said phenomena, but you have yet to share one dyno run:unsure:
Yes this is the most likely scenario.
Of course, tire pressure, strap tension, wheel postilion on the drum, spark pickup signal and weather station calibration all have in impact as well - but we can assume the operator is very consistent in the dyno prep.

You chose the word "correctly". I stated "how you roll the throttle on impacts the number measured". Very different implication.

At the lean angles RC45 runs, that strategy probably works for him :sneaky:
(Pic is from How to remove Chicken Strips (and fries) without the track? post #12)
Lots of vinegar in your post - you seem bitter about something?
You think posting those pictures is an attack?
Here's a clue - if I really cared about what you or anyone else thought I would not have posted them in the first place.

You should listen to him. He's a pro with hundreds of dyno runs and access to charts us idiots couldn't even comprehend.

Just take his advice, and make sure to WACK THAT THROTTLE at 3krpm so when you reach 10krpm the bike gives you all the power it has.

Same thing coming out of a corner into a long straight. WACK THAT THROTTLE mid corner so when you come out onto the straight, you get full power.
Why are you telling me this? I think everyone can quickly see that its capped by looking at the line graph.

You're the one claiming that my map which goes to 100% is somehow slower than another map that also goes to 100%.

You've also made claims that how you roll on the throttle at low RPM somehow affects power output while at 100% throttle and at 11k RPM.
In your own words "Maybe learn to read. Read it again. And after that, read it once more."
If a person is after a bragging rights number from the dyno run, then how you roll the throttle on impacts the number measured.
Here is a clue - I am sure you are aware it is possible to bounce a bike off the rev limiter without using full throttle. This is a clue as to how it would be possible to put a Throttle By Wire ETV table managed bike on the dyno and make a pull ostensibly using "full throttle" but you are not and still have a run that goes to 13,800rpm.
Hell, even the stock US bike with a 73% capped throttle can pull redline - so...... it is possible to influence the number measured on the dyno by how you roll on the throttle.

Also quit playing the victim card over and over. I'm not here cursing or being racist.
In your own words again in regards to the tome of your own posts "Maybe learn to read. Read it again. And after that, read it once more." - would you take on the mealy mouthed attitude and tone in person with people, or is it just reserved for online interactions?
 

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LOL This debate is entertaining for sure, but there is nothing new here. On the one hand we have a guy(?) who can read graphs and make assumptions(theory) based on the black and white in front of him. Sounds legit, right? Then on the other hand we have a guy who can also do everything the one hand guy can do, albeit with some significant differences. The other hand guy has already done (first hand) everything the one hand guy is theorizing (only) and has the experience and data to back up what he is saying. The one hand guy wants the other hand guy to tell him everything he knows from experience AND provide him with the (likely reams of) data to support his experience, in a fucking forum post! That means the one hand guy is a lazy fuck who needs to work his theories first hand in the real world where theories are proven/disproven/adjusted to reality, so that he too can have that experience.

Although I don't have the experience of a RC45 on the Honda ECU, I do have much experience in car/truck ECUs that are essentially identical in operation, including rate and position sensors for throttle mapping in cornering and braking, etc. Well, the car/truck applications don't have the vertical acceleration sensors for wheelie control...
 

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I do have much experience in car/truck ECUs that are essentially identical in operation, including rate and position sensors for throttle mapping in cornering and braking, etc.
Ya, that's a car/truck with an automatic transmission. Rate sensors are useful the so the car can downshift if you floor it; among other things.

Imagine making assumptions about a motorcycle ECU based on how a car ECU works. Sounds like a brilliant idea.

Also google any scholarly paper ever. See how they do things there. You make a hypothesis, do an experiment, and expose the data/experiment. Then that paper is peer reviewed.
That's what I did here. I made a map, experimented with it, and shared it here for other to try.

Then here comes the dyno pro and makes blanket statements with no logic or data to back it. He keeps mentioning the dyno pulls, he keeps mentioning the secret maps, but never explains it or links or shares.

And then he wonders why people here don't take him seriously.

who can read graphs and make assumptions(theory) based on the black and white in front of him. Sounds legit, right?
I did a little more than just read graphs. I made my own map and tested it, and modified it over many iterations. I also did make assumptions/hypothesis and tried them out in my map. Some were wrong, some were right. That's how the scientific process works.

Sounds legit, right?
Indeed, welcome to the 21st century where we use the scientific method and don't just blindly listen to "experts."
Why don't you google how the corona virus vaccine was developed so fast. I'm sure if the researchers and doctors had an attitude like @RC45 we would all be in a better situation right now.

LOL This debate is entertaining for sure, but there is nothing new here
Funny how you say there's nothing new here, the proceed to add nothing new to the debate.

guy is a lazy fuck
Yes, I'm lazy for doing my own map, sharing, and then using logic, graphs and charts to explain my reasoning.

wants the other hand guy to tell him everything he knows
Not true. I want him explain and prove his statement. He's the one who posted it, he CHOSE to join this conversation. Notice how when some other people made comments about the stuff I CHOSE to share I didn't call them lazy fucks and instead explained my reasoning.
 

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......one hand guy wants the other hand guy to tell him everything he knows from experience AND provide him with the (likely reams of) data to support his experience, in a fucking forum post! That means the one hand guy is a lazy fuck who needs to work his theories first hand in the real world where theories are proven/disproven/adjusted to reality, so that he too can have that experience.
pretty much.....
 

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Not true. I want him explain and prove his statement. He's the one who posted it, he CHOSE to join this conversation. Notice how when some other people made comments about the stuff I CHOSE to share I didn't call them lazy fucks and instead explained my reasoning.
Your friend HP17 pointed out your map, while logically and intelligently constructed, would slow things down, even compared to a base EU map.
I supported this opinion.
You countered that you wanted to slow things down - so what exactly is your concern here?
You got what you desired, a slow map.
It seems we are all in agreement then. (y)
 

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Ya, that's a car/truck with an automatic transmission. Rate sensors are useful the so the car can downshift if you floor it; among other things....
Imagine making assumptions about a motorcycle ECU based on how a car ECU works. Sounds like a brilliant idea.....
Funny how you say there's nothing new here, the proceed to add nothing new to the debate......
Your responses are stark proof of just how ignorant you are of the real world.

I only jumped in to point out just how far from reality you are. Of course, that really wasn't adding anything either because anyone who knows things saw that you were ignorant pretty quickly.
 

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Your responses are stark proof of just how ignorant you are of the real world.

I only jumped in to point out just how far from reality you are. Of course, that really wasn't adding anything either because anyone who knows things saw that you were ignorant pretty quickly.
So your response to me saying "you didn't add anything to the conversation except name call" is to continue to name call.
Sounds like you haver nothing relevant to add.
 

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You should start your own thread regarding your findings and thoughts.

I guarantee you won't get much action there......
 
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