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17' SP2 auto blipper not working, please help

13K views 43 replies 7 participants last post by  Saul54  
#1 ·
Up shifts work fine, but down shifts not working after final gearing and tire change for track use.
The diagnostic tools don't tell you anything, no fault codes, nothing.
The bike has HRC ECU and harness, HRC rear sets, full system exhaust. The quick shifter is stock.
I did some research and apparently this is somewhat a common issue. Just haven't found any solution yet.
Please help. Thanks.
 
#2 ·
Is the rpm coming up at all? If not the
Quick shifter or the software isnt turned on or set correct.

The other is are you preloading the shifter at all. If you are the shift assist won’t work.

I would verify you have downshifting turned on and the rpm raise is somewhat reasonable per gear and rpm.


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#3 · (Edited)
If you have the stock transmission ratios rather than 1 of the HRC gear plans, then you have to have your HRC ECU flashed by Ten Kate to fix the hard coded gearing error HRC accidentally baked into the ECU.

This is the only fix for this issue you are experiencing. The entire HRC setup is not intended to be used with the stock transmission.

Do you have the HRC power up kit installed in the engine as well? If not then you will also get advantage from the stock engine fuel/ignition maps that Ten Kate will flash into your ECU.

Are you using the HRC setup software to manage the setup changes? Or only the Sport Kit menus?

What rear sets? Ten Kate Gilles? Have you maintained the specified shifter linkage ratios as laid out in the HRC Setup Guide? Where are you located?
 
#5 · (Edited by Moderator)
How can you get your ECU flashed by Ten Kate? We used the HRC software.
If we change it with a HRC transmission will the blipper work as well?
I don't know what the HRC power up kit is but if it's the camshaft and springs then no. The engine is all stock. So is the transmission. (internal gears are stock but final gears are modded)
But we do have the HRC ECU and harness installed.
These are the footpegs.

I live in Taipei, Taiwan. (Asian Pacific)
 

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#10 ·
I’m not following he said it was bikes with the HRC software. So it has to be in the software.
How does a quickshifter know what gears are in the transmission? They don’t. They only work by what they are programmed with for kill times and the rpm increase to downshift.
It almost sounds like the ECU is getting flashed to turn on the auto blipper since the upshifting works.


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#11 ·
Again, I have already provided the solution. The HRC ECU has a baked in error that Ten Kate resolves. The error specifically results in the autoblipper being disabled.

It is a specific HRC SP2 issue. And the ECU knows exactly what gears are in the transmission. The ECU is hard coded with the transmission ratios. That's the point of my fuggen argument with Honda about not cutting the Sport Kit loose for the stock bike.

All the values, final drive, tire diameter, transmission ratios are hard coded. That's why the Sports Kit provides an interface to offer up alternative table values.
 
#12 ·
If that is a shot fine. I just don’t get how you can’t explain something without taking shots at people. Amazing.

SP1 and two and pretty much the same machines. Minus the head. From my quick look at tuning files everything I looked at is the same.
Once you change the ECU then I could do the same and be the same programming so yes it would be the same.

Now back to the problem and maybe give an answer other than taking shots.
Where in your programming does the software turn off and on the autoblipper?
I just can’t see it being related to transmission gears. Now I am not saying that the software doesn’t have places for gear changes, just that something other than a gear ratio controls the auto blipper.


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#14 · (Edited)
I was going to let it go - I even deleted a snarky line I had in the response. But the times I tried to offer guidance based on SP2 POV I was politely told the SP2 is NOT the SP1.

I have told you the answer, I honestly don't care whether you believe or accept what I have stated.

The bottom line is I am right.

*edit*

On second thoughts, for those willing to listen - here, again, is the explanation of and the solution to the OPs problem.

The Honda Torque Management relies on hard coded tables of gearing data to compute the actual wheel behavior at any point in time.
In the stock, SP1 and SP2 road bikes, these values are NOT changeable - hence why sometimes some bikes experience TC, WC, EB, QS anomalies when either tires or sprockets are changed.

All these features need to know the exact state of the wheel before any decision is made.

Front and center in the Sport Kit is the ability to by way of Dash Menu OR HRC Software adjust the tire size, sprocket tooth count, transmission ratio to allow the ECU to calculate the correct counter shaft speed to make the correct decisions with regard to TC, WC, QS and EB.

All these changes are made in relation to hard coded tables that the HRC software and/or dash menu over rules at run time.

SO - in the stock bikes you CANNOT change the hard coded tables by way of dash menu (or by way of tuning software), so any successes had after changign sprockets or tires are just pure luck.

Now - onto the HRC SP2 ECU.

It comes from HRC with the base hard coded transmission ratio tables containing an error. This error is in the STOCK gearing table.

This means that if the HRC ECU is installed on a bike with a STOCK transmission, it (the ECU) will never be able to calculate the correct counter shaft speed so then it will never be able to calculate the correct transmission gear speed and will never be able synchronize the autoblip for down shifting.

The result is the that the autoblip function is disabled by the error check routine in the HRC ECU - the routine tries to keep the system from making an incorrect prediction that would result in disaster.

If an HRC transmission paln gear set is installed then the problem goes away, as the ECU can now correctly calculate the counter shaft speed because the HRC transmission requires you to go into the HRC software and enter the correct transmission ration values.

So - you either spend $10,000 on the HRC transmission ratio plan gear sets - or you send your HRC ECU to Ten Kate and they low level edit your ECU and fix the hard coded stock transmission table - the result is that the HRC ECU does not disable the autoblip feature at run time - it allows it to work properly.

An added bonus of sending your HRC ECU to Ten Kate is that they will replace the HRC fuel/ignition map that is expecting a WSBK power up kit engine with a Superstock fuel/ignition map that is better suited to the stock engine.

****
This is the correct answer and explanation to the OPs question.

Period.

[russian accent]Ghafe nise Day...[/russian accent]
 
#13 ·
Software on these bikes is different and everyone is learning, hence my tuning thread. Not many playing with the tuning so anyone that can learn a trick might help others.
My point. If it really is a software that is being tuned out by someone then that is something that might benefit someone else that knows how to tune, the original poster for example.


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#15 ·
Come on guys, behave, you guys should get together and figure out what is wrong with the electronics on this bike. Since you two are the ones with the most information and experience with the new bike, I was thinking on pulling the trigger on a SP to replace my 14 SP but the more I read on the problems that everyone is having I don't think I will.
 
#16 ·
Nothing to get together. No kumbaya bonfire marshmallow roast needed.

The OPs problem has been diagnosed and explained and the solution provided.

There is no negotiation or debate or tuning needed. The problem is a known one and a solution available - i noted the error in the HRC documentation at about the same time Ten Kate noted the error and failure during track testing - they came to the correct conclusion and using their advanced in-house capabilities low level edited the problem away.

You should buy the SP2 if you want. In the end if you use the bike in the intended operating envelope you will not experience issues.

I have come to accept the stock bike is just that, a stock bike.
 
#17 ·
Very interesting info and feedback. Thanks RC45 for doing the leg work. I'm nowhere near heavy into tuning my SP1 as you are(who is other than DeathCBR?? Lol) but this topic caught my eye because the OP's issue relates to my current issue.

I've changed out my OEM wheels to BST's (spec'd correctly for the '17 CBR SP1 w/ABS), did not change gearing or chain size(stock gearing/525 chain), did not change rotors F/R, but I did go up to 190/55/17 on the rear tire. Also changed out M/C to Brembo 19 RCS.

I assumed it would throw some kind of code(s) once it was all put back together with the changes/mods, especially since the tire size issue is a common one but I was a bit baffled when not only did my ABS light come on(probably due to a notoriously finicky ABS system detecting a microscopic bleed error) but also my check engine light, TC, and my suspension light (shock absorber symbol with ! next to it). The bike runs fine but the quickshifter is also not operating correctly and I can only shift with the clutch.

I assume all of it has to do with what you meticulously explained - change ANYTHING on this bike to throw off the factory settings(tire size, wheel weight etc) and the ECU isn't able to compute and all of gets thrown off.

Got a appointment to see if the dealer can clear the codes or do anything via Service Mode but do you think the only way around anything 'Honda Authorized' servicing would be the Ten Kate flash?

Any info or feedback would be greatly appreciated.
 
#19 ·
Try putting stock wheels back and see if the errors stop.

The fact the Ohlins SCU is also chiming in leads me to believe the issue might be wheel speed sensor related.

Maybe the carbon wheels are interfering with the wheel speed sensor pulse detection of the sensors permanent magnets?

tbsimmons is correct in asking for the DTC codes, although they may just be the normal alpha numeric soup of "I cant see you, you cant see me and they don't know we are calling them, so lets all panic!" code numbers.

As for the Ten Kate flash solution to the OPs issue, this only relates the HRC SP2 ECU, not the stock ECU. Well, not quite true - if you send them a stock SP2 ECU they can turn it into an HRC ECU, but then you lose all street functions. No lights, horn, signals, side stand, fan or Ohlin's support.
 
#23 ·
You might be 100% correct, that is why I was asking but I guess asking doesn't get answers from some.
The speed sensors might correlate with the shaft sensor, which if that was the case, sprockets or tire sizes would cause the same thing.
I just can wrap my head around why it would matter, more so the quick shifter works.
If so figure out the gearing in the trans you are programming and lie to the bike for tire size and sprocket and it should start working.
This has been done with car and truck tuning for ages since ABS came into the world, reason is different size tires front and rear.
You lied to the PCM on rear gear size and could get the ABS to stay off.
Hence the reason I was asking the question that got turned into something else.

Since the suspension light is turning on I am thinking it might be a wiring issue, ground or something.
Reason is I had my wheel backwards and the Suspension light didnt come on. Didnt ride far because the ABS light didn't go off.

To answer your question on HRC ECU, I have not came to a conclusion what the reason would be over a stock ECU with Woolich Software.
If you are building a high reving beast, then the RPM tables might go higher. But that would be the only thing I can come up with.
I dont think a stock bike or close to a stock bike would need a HRC ECU.

If you dont know or have not read the thread, read Tuning the 17 with Woolich. It does a lot.
It is what I have tuned into or out of my bike. I have had mine since March of 2017.

https://www.1000rr.net/forums/modifications-upgrades-12/249298-tuning-2017-woolich-software.html
Done more since this but will get someone started.
Ex. Front Brake Lines (Kept the ABS)
Engine Covers
Rear sets
5.5 mm front rotors going on this weekend
Swapping fork springs to a little stiffer for me.

The SP1 or SP2 are great machines, just have to understand how they work and the tuning behind it.
Some of the things discussed I have done to my bike with no ill effects.
 

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#25 · (Edited)
You might be 100% correct, that is why I was asking but I guess asking doesn't get answers from some.
The speed sensors might correlate with the shaft sensor, which if that was the case, sprockets or tire sizes would cause the same thing.
I just can wrap my head around why it would matter, more so the quick shifter works.
If so figure out the gearing in the trans you are programming and lie to the bike for tire size and sprocket and it should start working.
This has been done with car and truck tuning for ages since ABS came into the world, reason is different size tires front and rear.
You lied to the PCM on rear gear size and could get the ABS to stay off.
Hence the reason I was asking the question that got turned into something else.

Since the suspension light is turning on I am thinking it might be a wiring issue, ground or something.
Reason is I had my wheel backwards and the Suspension light didnt come on. Didnt ride far because the ABS light didn't go off.

To answer your question on HRC ECU, I have not came to a conclusion what the reason would be over a stock ECU with Woolich Software.
If you are building a high reving beast, then the RPM tables might go higher. But that would be the only thing I can come up with.
I dont think a stock bike or close to a stock bike would need a HRC ECU.

If you dont know or have not read the thread, read Tuning the 17 with Woolich. It does a lot.
It is what I have tuned into or out of my bike. I have had mine since March of 2017.

https://www.1000rr.net/forums/modifications-upgrades-12/249298-tuning-2017-woolich-software.html
Done more since this but will get someone started.
Ex. Front Brake Lines (Kept the ABS)
Engine Covers
Rear sets
5.5 mm front rotors going on this weekend
Swapping fork springs to a little stiffer for me.

The SP1 or SP2 are great machines, just have to understand how they work and the tuning behind it.
Some of the things discussed I have done to my bike with no ill effects.
Using the HRC ECU has less to do with engine tuning for ultimate power and more to do with overall control of the motorcycle on track, the sooner people come to grips with this change in philosophy the easier it gets to use the tools at hand.

HRC ECU drops support for lights, fans, ABS and Ohlins SCU - the only reason for using the HRC ECU is if you are creating a dedicated track/race bike that will use the HRC overlay torque and engine management features to manage on track performance by way of using their performance envelope managing strategies.

The full advantage of this management strategy is brought to bear when you use the HRC software tools to quickly make broad strategy changes to the bike that allow the rider to make refined on the fly changes from the handle bar selector switch.

Sakurai Honda hard at work using the HRC tools at Suzuka...
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So that the bike on track can make use of the Torque Management logic Honda have engineered into the stability logic of the HRC ECU as illustrated below.
This is the reason for using the HRC ECU

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#32 ·
This thread makes my head hurt with all the tech talk. I like my super simple 04. I can work on mechanical things. When complicated computers get involved the metal plate in my head short circuits them.
 
#37 ·
I just got an e-mail from Ten Kate and they said that they could build 225hp Fireblade engines. Although I'm not sure if it's wise to go down that route.

Yes, the quickshifter issue can and will be fixed.

I'd like to thank RC45 and all of you again for your time and attention. It's been a pleasure.
 
#38 ·
Ten Kate will never steer you wrong - they are not the cheapest place in the world, but they are by far the friendliest to privateers.

If not for Ten Kate's support, I would have dumped my SP2 a long time ago.

I am probably going to buy one of their WSBK engines in the end.
 
#39 ·
When you have the ECU tuned by Ten Kate ask them what they do.
Is it a code they delete out or change the code to accept a stock gearing in the trans.
I know with cars, which I tried to explain above, you lie to the ECU.
For example stock trans ratio with a plus one and minus one on sprockets (which would be like changing to a lower gear in a car) You would tell the ECU you had a smaller tire than what was on it so the shift points and speedo was happy.
I am sure it’s one of the above.



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#40 ·
The answer is C. None of the above.

I guess my previous answer to this question was not clear enough.

Again - they edit the actual gearing table on the ECU and correct an incorrect number HRC hard coded into the stock gearing table on the HRC ECU.

The HRC ECU will allow you to specify any of the valid gear pairs that are installed in the stock transmission or any of the HRC gearing plans.

They (HRC) incorrectly hard coded one of those gear pairs in the stock table on the ECU.

This meant if you program your ECU using the HRC software and select the stock gear pair you will notice the numbers are INCORRECT. Even if you edit them onscreen, they remain INCORRECT in the table on the ECU.

Ten Kate edit this INCORRECT value in the hard coded table on the ECU. This hard coded value never bothered teams that run NON-STOCK HRC gearing. Ten Kate graciously fix this error that HRC is not interested in fixing.

I am almost sure I have provided this exact explanation before.

Oh well.
 
#42 ·
My first post in this thread, Post #3, answered the question. https://www.1000rr.net/forums/4263595-post3.html

In post #10 indicates you didn't follow the answer https://www.1000rr.net/forums/4263619-post10.html

Post #11 I provide the answer again https://www.1000rr.net/forums/4263623-post11.html

Again you proffer doubts as to the validity of my explanation - Post #14 is an even deeper explanation https://www.1000rr.net/forums/4263629-post14.html

Finally you ask the OP to ask TK what they do - a question answered what, 2 or 3 times in this thread already?

Condescension in my responses is not the problem here.

I do not want the folks who really want the answers to doubt the solutions provided - they are well researched, validated and correct.

I don't post trash, but rather provide real facts. If it is speculation I clearly say as such.

Repeatedly asking the same question past the provided answer is not productive at all.

Early someone else suggested we all work together - that is a great idea, but will require some level of trust when precise answers are provided.
 
#43 ·
After this I am done with you.
I do things off fact and what works not off what someone says or pays to have done. I have done my own tuning on cars and bikes since around 2000. So knowing what an internal combustion engine will do is not new to me.
I ask questions when I don’t know, hence the tuning changes. What you stated is one of the reasons, code, which Ten Kate changes. I was asking to know what they do not the why. If they lie to it or if they change the code, which you say they do, but since you pay and not ask questions is the reason for my questions.
This is a new machine which everyone is trying to learn the ins and outs of. I don’t get why everything is so offensive, it doesn’t have to be more can learn.

You have a nice day. Buy a Superbike Engine and pay someone to tune it and still hook up an electronic stock suspension that will not give you what you want out of a so called Superbike that us mortals on the forum can’t handle in the stock form. Or you can call Ohlins to tell you what’s in the suspension or take my word for it, but I think a phone call has or will occur.


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#44 ·
After this I am done with you.
I do things off fact and what works not off what someone says or pays to have done. I have done my own tuning on cars and bikes since around 2000. So knowing what an internal combustion engine will do is not new to me.
I ask questions when I don’t know, hence the tuning changes. What you stated is one of the reasons, code, which Ten Kate changes. I was asking to know what they do not the why. If they lie to it or if they change the code, which you say they do, but since you pay and not ask questions is the reason for my questions.
This is a new machine which everyone is trying to learn the ins and outs of. I don’t get why everything is so offensive, it doesn’t have to be more can learn.

You have a nice day. Buy a Superbike Engine and pay someone to tune it and still hook up an electronic stock suspension that will not give you what you want out of a so called Superbike that us mortals on the forum can’t handle in the stock form. Or you can call Ohlins to tell you what’s in the suspension or take my word for it, but I think a phone call has or will occur.


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Clue to the clueless.

The OP presented a problem.

A problem that Ten Kate and I identified a long time ago and they solved.

And what is this trucking shit that I pay and don't ask why?

Are you kidding me? All I have done is ask why. I have 10s of hours in phone calls around the world, hundreds of emails to various solution providers.

I also have spoken to Ohlins on the phone about the various issues and possibilities with the SCU. Where do you think I got the guidance to wire the SCU into the HRC harness? I did so after speaking to Ohlins.

BTW, I TOLD you weeks ago HOW Ten Kate FIX the transposed number error in the transmission ratio table.

They edit the ECU image.

Simple as that!

Period.

Done.

I stated this a long time ago in many threads.

YOU chose to argue pointless nonsense and made out not only did I not the why but I didnt know the how.

This is not a PC5 or Bazzazz overlay lie to the ECU about gearing tripe nonsense story. YOU kept bringing up that nonsense.

This issue is an issue with the HRC ECU that has a HARD ERROR in a table that is fixed by editing the ECU.

How do I know?

Because i picked up the bloody phone and SPOKE to Ten Kate about it MONTHS ago. I have been speaking to them weekly since March 2017.

Here is the error. I found it the day my Japanese HRC kit manual arrived. Ten Kate then identified the data error results in a physical problem (as reported by the OP of the thread) Ten Kate had been working on a solution ever since.

They told me they had solved it with the early HRC ECU they received. They then said as soon as they work out a viable commercial solution they will let me know. They did find a solution and they did apply it to my ECU.

I am still not sure why you have to make this into a pissing contest. You mad cause I had the answer to the OPs question the moment I read it?

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